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b-greek-digest V1 #38
b-greek-digest Saturday, 9 December 1995 Volume 01 : Number 038
In this issue:
TLG Web Page
Reminders from the list owner: B-GREEK (inerrancy, magazines etc.
Classical and Koine Differences
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Theodore F. Brunner" <tbrunner@uci.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:42:51 -0800
Subject: TLG Web Page
The TLG's new web page can be accessed at http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~tlg. We
invite suggestions for further information which we might provide in order
to assist TLG users.
All the best for the coming holidays from all of us at the
Thesaurus Linguae Graecae!
Ted Brunner
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Theodore F. Brunner, Director
Thesaurus Linguae Graecae
Phone: (714) 824-64904
FAX: (714) 824-8434
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
------------------------------
From: David John Marotta <djm5g@virginia.edu>
Date: 08 Dec 95 15:16:39 EST
Subject: Reminders from the list owner: B-GREEK (inerrancy, magazines etc.
As a reminder, let us keep the convention of Greek language based
theological discussions. Personally I believe in inerracy, but
am wise enough to call many brother who don't give it the time of day.
Anyone who does believe in inerrancy gets to that position by first
accepting Jesus as Messiah, and only as a corallary comes to the position
or inerrancy. Believing it myself, I feel perfectly comfortable now asking
everyone to stop using B-GREEK to discuss it. <smile>
As for the free magazine offers, if anyone can make them stop, please
make them stop at the source. It will take a tremendous effort here to
try and make them stop, and the sender can easily circumvent all of them.
I am also going to ask you to stop discussing it on the list, and also to
stop sending me notices about how annoyed you are. I know you are annoyed,
so am I. But there are over 300 of you on the list, many of whom are taking
the time to tell me you are annoyed. Belive me, that is more annoying than
the lone buy in N.Y. trying to rip you off by selling magazines. Someone
on the list tried to track this guy down. Try harder. <grimace>
As self defence, unsubscribe from B-GREEK and subscribe to B-GREEK-DIGEST
so that his message comes in the middle of some content as this is the
same information digested into bulk mailings.
And for those of you so tired of an occasional free magazine solicitation
here is how to abandon ship and unsubscribe:
Here is a reminder of how to unsubscribe from the B-GREEK list.
Please keep this reminder handy, and do *not* send an unsubscribe
message to the *entire* list!
To unsubscribe, send an e-mail message to
MAJORDOMO@VIRGINIA.EDU
with the following request as the TEXT (not subject) of the message:
UNSUBSCRIBE B-GREEK
or if you are reading the digested version of B-GREEK send:
UNSUBSCRIBE B-GREEK-DIGEST
For further information, send the following to the same address:
INFO B-GREEK
As a last resort, contact me at djm5g@virginia.edu
Thank you.
David John Marotta, Medical Center Computing, Stacey Hall
Univ of Virginia (804) 982-3718 wrk INTERNET: djm5g@virginia.edu
Box 512 Med Cntr (804) 924-5261 msg PRODIGY: KCMR45A
C'ville VA 22908 (804) 296-7209 fax IBM US: usuvarg8
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Subject: b-greek-digest V1 #37
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b-greek-digest Friday, 8 December 1995 Volume 01 : Number 037
In this issue:
confused
Re: b-greek-digest V1 #32
Re: confused
Re: confused
Re: Inerrancy discussion
God didn't "fail"
Re: Inerrancy discussion
Textus Receptus
Re: confused
Re > Textus Receptus
Re: Re > Textus Receptus
RE: THE PRESERVATION OF THE ...
Re: FREE Magazine Problem
FREE Magazine Subscriptions
Re: b-greek-digest V1 #32 /inerrancy
Re:L Inerrancy Discussion (End to)
Re: Acts 15:18
Re: Greek orthography
Re:Textus Receptus
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jeff Needle <jeff.needle@giffy.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 04:52:00 GMT
Subject: confused
W > From: Carlton Winbery <winberyc@popalex1.linknet.net>
W > To: b-greek@virginia.edu
W > Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 21:07:06 +0400
W > Subject: confused
W >
W > It's a slow night. I am a bit confused. I am being told that there must
W > be an inerrant text of Scripture or I have nothing to base my faith on.
W > Some even say I can't be a Christian without believing (I suppose that
W > means give mental assent to) in an inerrant text. But they also tell me
W > that the texts that are inerrant are the original autographs which I can't
W > quite get to. Woe is me for I am in a pickle. I can't be saved without an
W > inerrant text and we haven't yet found the autographs. If anyone finds
W > them, fax them to me quick!
W >
W > Calton L. Winbery
W > Prof. Religion
W > LA College, Pineville, La
W > winberyc@popalex1.linknet.net
W >
W >
W >
Sorry, misplaced the original autographs -- saw them just the other
day, can't put my finger on them now.
BTW, you must be a very short person, if you're in a pickle. I'm
surprised the literalists on this list did not pick up on this before.
Pax.
Jeff Needle
jeff.needle@giffy.com
- - ---
RoseReader 2.10 P008106
- ------------------------------
From: Will Wagers <wagers@computek.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 00:50:18 -0600
Subject: Re: b-greek-digest V1 #32
>Anyone who doesn't believe in the inerrancy of the scriptures DOESN'T believe
>in Christ, or God for that matter. Part of believing in Christ, is believing
>his divinity, which includes the characteristic of omnipotence. How could an
>omnipotent being fail at anything, including giving us a nonerrant scripture?
>I think you may be confused on what it may mean to believe in Christ.
Frankly, I don't get the connection between believing in Christ - which is
often
come upon prior to reading the Bible - and the actions of hundreds and
thousands
of ordinary, mortal men, who wrote down, transcribed, and translated the
books now known as the Bible.
In any case, what's this to do with b-greek?
Sincerely,
Will
- ------------------------------
From: Mike Adams <mikadams@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 23:23:09 -0800
Subject: Re: confused
You wrote:
>
>It's a slow night. I am a bit confused. I am being told that there
must
>be an inerrant text of Scripture or I have nothing to base my faith on.
>Some even say I can't be a Christian without believing (I suppose that
>means give mental assent to) in an inerrant text. But they also tell me
>that the texts that are inerrant are the original autographs which I
can't
>quite get to. Woe is me for I am in a pickle. I can't be saved without
an
>inerrant text and we haven't yet found the autographs. If anyone finds
>them, fax them to me quick!
>
>Calton L. Winbery
Quel chance!!
Would you believe it? An angel just dropped off a complete set of
autographs in a single volume. He said I could keep them a while, long
enough to look them over. Unfortunately, the pages won't run through the
fax, being gold and all. But if you can bear with me for a couple of
days, I'll come up with an inerrant translation!
Sincerely,
js
P.S. I don't care what others may say, I'm certain you're just as tall as
Bildad the Shuhite.
- ------------------------------
From: "Keith A. Clay" <keithc@ramlink.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 02:53:59 -0500
Subject: Re: confused
>You wrote:
>>
>>It's a slow night. I am a bit confused. I am being told that there
>must
>>be an inerrant text of Scripture or I have nothing to base my faith on.
>>Some even say I can't be a Christian without believing (I suppose that
>>means give mental assent to) in an inerrant text. But they also tell me
>>that the texts that are inerrant are the original autographs which I
>can't
>>quite get to. Woe is me for I am in a pickle. I can't be saved without
>an
>>inerrant text and we haven't yet found the autographs. If anyone finds
>>them, fax them to me quick!
>>
>>Calton L. Winbery
>
>Quel chance!!
>Would you believe it? An angel just dropped off a complete set of
>autographs in a single volume. He said I could keep them a while, long
>enough to look them over. Unfortunately, the pages won't run through the
>fax, being gold and all. But if you can bear with me for a couple of
>days, I'll come up with an inerrant translation!
>
>Sincerely,
>js
>
>P.S. I don't care what others may say, I'm certain you're just as tall as
>Bildad the Shuhite.
>
>
>
>
Would this angel happen to have been named Moroni? Just a thought I had
about gold tablets and all. And as always, this has absolutely nothing to do
with Greek.
keith a. clay - I personally like the great salt lake...
- - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keith A. Clay Tri-State Oxygen, Inc
4013 Blackburn Avenue 2927 Greenup Avenue
Ashland, KY 41101-5019 P.O. Box 121
(606)325-8331 Ashland, KY 41105-0121
(606)329-9638
(800)828-1620
School Address:
100 Academic Parkway
Kentucky Christian College
Box 171
Grayson, KY 41143
e-mail: keithc@ramlink.net
Fax: (606)325-8331 -- my computer answers both my phone and receives faxes.
(606)325-9962 -- Tri-State Oxygen fax
==========================================================================
"Christianity has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found
difficult and left untried." -- G. K. Chesterton
==========================================================================
- ------------------------------
From: Russ Reeves <russr@pe.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 01:28:19 +0000
Subject: Re: Inerrancy discussion
> Anyone who doesn't believe in the inerrancy of the scriptures DOESN'T believe
> in Christ, or God for that matter. Part of believing in Christ, is believing
> his divinity, which includes the characteristic of omnipotence. How could an
> omnipotent being fail at anything, including giving us a nonerrant scripture?
> I think you may be confused on what it may mean to believe in
Christ.
Though off-topic, it might be of interest to mention that New
Testment scholar J. Gresham Machen (whose conservativism, strict
confessionalism, and belief in inerrancy can hardly be faulted),
would have disagreed. "There are many who believe that the Bible is
right at the central point, in its account of the redeeming work of
Christ, and yet believe that it contains many errors. Such men are
not really liberals, but Christians; because they have accepted as
true the message upon which Christianity depends." J. Grehsam
Machen, _Christianity and Liberalism_, 75. It must be strenuous work
to out-fundamentalize Dr. Machen.
Promising to stick to greek next time,
Russ Reeves (whose M.A. thesis on Machen makes the same point)
russr@pe.net
- ------------------------------
From: CAROL CLARK TAYLOR <TAYLOC@micah.chowan.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 08:48:28 EST
Subject: God didn't "fail"
As several have pointed out, inerrancy, in depth, really doesn't
belong on this list, but if one is going to get in the pool, one may
as well swim.
There has been some equation of God with "failure" if Scripture is
NOT inerrant, someone even asked when God failed if it does err. Why
does this have to be looked at as God "failing"? (BTW, if you do
choose to look at it like this, He "failed" when he brought humans
into the picture instead of just dropping a copy from heaven).
Why can't we allow God to work as He chooses? And this is from
someone who used to be an inerrantist and didn't believe any other
way of evaluting Scripture was possible. That was until I came back
to school and learned about all these manuscripts and discrepancies,
etc. that I'd never heard about at Church. The evidence is there,
and while it may have been news to me, it wasn't news to God.
The point is, God is well aware of the problems and can work anyway.
He isn't dependent on human efforts, which BTW, were very good and
extremely faithful, especially considering first-century working
conditions and lack of technology.
I suggest God hasn't "failed," Scripture hasn't "failed," and even
the Biblical authors (who weren't writing to be published as Biblical
authors) didn't "fail." Maybe we're the ones "failing" by bickering
over this issue instead of acknowledging the miracle of Scripture and
working from there...not to mention getting back to Greek.
Carol
- ------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 08:13:55 -0600
Subject: Re: Inerrancy discussion
If I may inject what I wish but can hardly hope might be a last
"theological" comment on this whole business, I think injecting the issue
into discussion was the work of the Devil--no matter WHAT one understands
that assertion to mean. It was mischief; it has served to fuel a flame war
that some have found much more interesting than Greek questions. And now it
has evoked the sort of sarcasm on autographs more likely to fuel "autos da
fe." There has to be some mutual respect here if there's to be discussion.
Else we'll all be in the coffin carried by the students in Browning's
"Grammarian's Funeral":
So, with the throttling hands of death at strife,
Ground he at grammar;
Still, thor' the rattle, parts of speech were rife:
While he could stammer
He settled hOTI's business--let it be!--
Properly based OUN--
Gave us the doctrine of the enclitic DE,
Dead from the waist down ...
Is anyone for Greek?
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
- ------------------------------
From: Mike Adams <mikadams@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 06:53:24 -0800
Subject: Textus Receptus
I have been wading through my first and only (so far) book concerning
the history of the New Testament, Metzger's "The Text of the New
Testament". I am a complete novice in this aspect, but I found the
chapter on the Textus Receptus most interesting, and I think applicable
to the current thread, so here's the story as I understand it:
The printing press was invented in about 1450, and subsequently several
Latin editions of the Bible were published. The 1500's saw a push to
print the scriptures in Greek. The first two endeavors of this kind
were the Complutensian (Polyglot), and Erasmus's Greek New Testament.
The Polyglot, being a more ambitious work took longer to produce, and
was by far more bulky and expensive. The the work of Erasmus was,
according to Metzger, "inferior in critical value to the Complutensian,
yet because it was the first on the market and was available in a
cheaper and more convenient form, it attained a much wider circulation
and exercised a far greater influence than its rival". (p 103)
Due to its popularity Erasmus's work became the foundation of that of
Stephanus and Beza. In 1624 the Elzevir brothers also published a Greek
Testament. As printers, not scholars, they safely chose what seemed the
generally accepted text at that time, Beza's 1565 edition, and did not
presume to significantly alter it. They explain this in their
introduction to their second edition: "Textum ergo habes, nunc ab
omnibus receptum: in quo nihil immutatum aut corruptum damus." (p. 106)
Now my knowledge Latin isn't that great, coming only from my
pre-ecumenical years as a Catholic, but isn't there a double meaning
here? Did not the whole precept of inerrancy stem from this little
printer's blurb which has been misunderstood and misapplied?
I am reminded of one of the Constitution of the United States, most
fundamental provisions "separation of church and state", which is
universally accepted and applied in our legal system, and which,
unfortunately, has been most succesful in restricting our religious
freedom.
Selah!
Ellen Adams
- ------------------------------
From: Mike Adams <mikadams@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 07:27:32 -0800
Subject: Re: confused
You wrote:
>
>On Thu, 7 Dec 1995, Mike Adams wrote:
>
>> fax, being gold and all. But if you can bear with me for a couple of
>> days, I'll come up with an inerrant translation!
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> js
>>
>> P.S. I don't care what others may say, I'm certain you're just as
tall
as
>> Bildad the Shuhite.
>
>Two things: 1) could you explain "Bildad the Shuite?" and 2) Even JS
>rejected the concept for an inerrant translation even though he
claimed
>to have used autographs and to have translated by inspiration.
>
>Alma Allred
>
>
1. Bildad the Shoe Height: shortest man in the Bible.
2. Well, if by casting Urim and Thummin one can not elicit an inerrant
translation, how much more inexact mere efforts with lexica and papyri.
Speaking of papyri, I understand js accomplished wonders in decifering
the Book of Abraham from the Egyptian autographs.
Ellen Adams
(sometimes a bit too irreverent for this forum...
but here nonetheless.)
- ------------------------------
From: Karen Pitts <karen_pitts@maca.sarnoff.com>
Date: 8 Dec 1995 10:44:20 U
Subject: Re > Textus Receptus
Re > Textus Receptus 12/8/95 10:37 AM
On 12/8/95 Ellen Adams wrote
>"I am reminded of one of the Constitution of the United States, most
>fundamental provisions "separation of church and state", which is
>universally accepted and applied in our legal system, and which,
>unfortunately, has been most succesful in restricting our religious
>freedom.
Ellen:
Your example may be more apropos than you thought, since the Constitution
(actually the first Amendment in the Bill of Rights) merely says that
"Congress shall enact no law regarding the establishment of religion nor
prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (or close to that wording: source is my
husband, whose interest in the Constitution is akin to my interest in Biblical
Greek). Jefferson wrote the famous words "wall of separation of church and
state" in a letter. It is a sign of the poor general education of our times
that most Congressmen don't even know what the Constitution says, since they
quote the "wall of separation" all the time.
Peace.
Karen Pitts
Hopewell Presbyterian Church, Hopewell, NJ, teacher of NT Greek
David Sarnoff Research Center, Princeton, NJ, statistician
kpitts@sarnoff.com
- ------------------------------
From: Mike Adams <mikadams@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 08:28:37 -0800
Subject: Re: Re > Textus Receptus
You wrote:
>
>Your example may be more apropos than you thought, since the Constitution
>(actually the first Amendment in the Bill of Rights) merely says that
>"Congress shall enact no law regarding the establishment of religion nor
>prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (or close to that wording: source
is my
>husband, whose interest in the Constitution is akin to my interest in
Biblical
>Greek). Jefferson wrote the famous words "wall of separation of church
and
>state" in a letter. It is a sign of the poor general education of our
times
>that most Congressmen don't even know what the Constitution says, since
they
------------------------------
From: Phil <plong@e2.empirenet.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 18:25:33 -0800
Subject: Classical and Koine Differences
Carl Conrad Wrote:
>Is anyone for Greek?
Yes, I am. I have a general question about the differences between
classical Greek and Koine. Could some of those on the list that work with
both plase give me a fairly concise list of the major differences between
the two?
My Greek studies have been unusual, I took NT Greek in High School, using
Summer's textbook (and yes, that was a Christian High School, and yes they
still teach with Summer's book, although it is now an elective class with 15
or so students each year...) I then went to a Bible College that taught one
year of Chase and Philips Classical Greek, and then went to the NT for
reading. I now am finishing up at Seminary doing exclusivly NT, but when I
go back to the Classical textbook I only see a few differences, usually
stlye and vocabulary.
Help me see the differences a bit more clearly....
Phil
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #38
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