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b-greek-digest V1 #53
b-greek-digest Thursday, 21 December 1995 Volume 01 : Number 053
In this issue:
squirrels
Re: ANASTAS, EUQUS IN MARK
Re: ANASTAS, EUQUS IN MARK
Test
squirrels in the attic update
Re: squirrels in the attic update
Re: squirrels in the attic update
Re: squirrels in the attic update
Re: squirrels in the attic update
Re: squirrels in the attic update
Re: ANASTAS, EUQUS IN MARK
Re: squirrels in the attic update
Re: squirrels in the attic update
Test
"ANDRES" IN ACTS SPE
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Craig Martin <CrMartin@sunbelt.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 06:16:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: squirrels
in the attic...
Hi Paul...
They hate certain sounds and smells. If you have a dog or a cat. Get the
blanket the pet sleeps on and toss it into the attic where you suspect the
squirrels are gaining entrance. Also you can buy sound emmitting devices
that will keep most small animals out of your house... including mice, rats,
and squirrels.
Good luck!
In Jesus
Craig A Martin
<crmartin@sunbelt.net>
<songbird88@aol.com>
______________________________________________________
Jesus is Lord of all, and Merciful to all who call on His Name! ><>
American Home Church <http://www.lmg.com/crmartin/ahcaadd.htm>
Prophetic School <http://www.lmg.com/crmartin/prop.htm>
Word/Faith Home Page <http://www.lmg.com/crmartin/ahca3.htm>
______________________________________________________
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 06:47:29 -0600
Subject: Re: ANASTAS, EUQUS IN MARK
At 11:38 PM 12/12/95, Mark Penner wrote:
>A quick translation question--
>
>Mark 7:24 we read ANASTAS APHLQEN. NAS and others have "arose and went
>away." How important is the "arose" here? In Hebrew (QUM), I often
>don't translate it at all, or sometimes its more like "decided to." Is
>it the same in Greek? (Wish I knew Aramaic!) In Japanese Signs, it seems
>superfluous here. Am I missing something? I'm all for dynamic
>equivalence, but I want to make sure it really is equivalent.
I've always assumed this,"got up and left" was a Semitism, as you are
suggesting, but although I have tried on this list to argue the case that
Mark does not write Greek as a native user of the language, but some whose
opinions I respect have held otherwise. Perhaps this is a matter of the way
a culture thinks (whether or not Greek was a first or second language):
where you spend the night is a place of residence, and pitching a tent and
striking a tent are parts of the process of stopping overnight and moving
on in the morning, and so are noted in the way one thinks and the idiom one
speaks. This is just a speculation, but somebody on the list ought to know
more about this sort of thing.
>And while I'm on the topic, what about EUQUS in Mark? If it really is
>superfluous, why do so many English versions have "immediately" so
>often?
Doesn't every commentary comment on this? I think it IS important to
Mark--and here I'll go again off on one of these speculative tangents. I
tend to think of Mark's narrative style as cinematographic and to associate
his extraordinary predilection for the present tense in narration with this
deliberately "cinematographic" presentation. I see the recurrent EUQUS as
related to this, as underscoring the jerkiness of transitions from one
vivid episode to another. Regardless of how one feels about the Jesus
Seminar, there's a wonderful RE-PRESENTATION of the impact of Marcan
narrative in Daryl Schmidt's JS translation of Mark into the idiom of
late-20th-century colloquial American English which people serious about
Mark ought to look at; I really think it's a masterful version that brings
Mark to life.
Mark's question about Mark (re-markable?) bears upon a larger stylistic
issue that for many years fed the fires of Homeric criticism since Parry's
discoveries about oral poetry in the 20's: to what extent is the
"e'pithe`te traditionnelle" a meaningless place-filler in oral style (what
I'm talking about, if anyone is unfamiliar with it, is the way a particular
adjective is regularly associated with a particular noun, proper or
otherwise, e.g. POLUMHTIS with ODUSSEUS, or hRODODAKTULOS with HWS). Parry
argued that the oral poet never really consciously thought of "many-wiled"
or "rosy-fingered" when he came to speak of Odysseus or dawn breaking; more
recent critics feel that however this stylistic feature may have arisen in
dacytlic-hexameter verse, it became out of necessity a virtue--and that it
ought ALWAYS to be retained in translation. I do think so myself, and I'm
inclined to think we should keep such things as ANASTAS and EUQUS in
translation: ANASTAS APHLQEN, "he got up and left" or EUQUS DE ERXETAI PROS
AUTON, "and right away comes to him a paralytic ..."
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: "Bruce W. Cory" <cory@checkov.hm.udayton.edu>
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 09:19:58 -0500
Subject: Re: ANASTAS, EUQUS IN MARK
> And while I'm on the topic, what about EUQUS in Mark? If it really
> is superfluous, why do so many English versions have "immediately"
> so often?
Just my personsal opinion... I would translate EUQUS. This is
just not the superfluous use of the word. It is used repeatedly in
the Markan gospel for a specific purpose: to stress the immediacy of
the message. Not to translate it looses some of the gospel message:
the urgency of the proclamation, the rush toward the cross. It may
seem jerky and awkward, but it relates the message.
Bruce W. Cory
Department of Religious Studies
University of Dayton
(513) 229-4397
------------------------------
From: JClar100@aol.com
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 09:52:15 -0500
Subject: Test
test
------------------------------
From: Paul Dixon - Ladd Hill Bible Church <pauld@iclnet93.iclnet.org>
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 08:42:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: squirrels in the attic update
Just thought I'd bring everybody up to date on the squirrel dilemma.
Here is a summary of the helpful and not so helpful (though humorous)
responses.
1. Despite the fact I explicitly urged readers to interpret my
words 'we have squirrels in the attic' literally, some persisted in
forcing their nonliteral hermeneutic on the words and concluded I had
gone a little looney, or that perhaps a good dose of Calvinistic reading
would do the trick.
2. Others, like Job's friends, pounced on me and my behavior as
the sure cause. BTW, Jim, you've got to get rid of that bad tic (tongue
in cheek).
3. Some, apparently still caught up in the baptism debate,
figured I ought to thoroughly reform those nasty critters by immersing
them a good long while.
4. Finally, some interpreted the words normatively and with
compassion (not to say laughter is not good medicine) responded with
helpful ideas, namely:
a. Ferrets make good pets and they hate squirrels. Get one.
b. Try mothballs in the attic.
C. Get Hav-a-Heart traps (seriously), make a lot of
noise to scare them out, set the traps, wait a day or 2, then have a
heart and release them in another neighborhood.
d. Use fox urine. Nobody likes the smell too much and
apparently neither do the squirrels.
e. Use illegal traps and kill the buggers.
f. After they are eradicated board up the entrances or
use chicken wire.
Thanks gang for all your help. I feel well armed for the fray.
Dr. Paul S. Dixon
Pastor, Ladd Hill Bible Church
Wilsonville, Oregon
------------------------------
From: Mark O'Brien <Mark_O'Brien@dts.edu>
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 11:01:15 CST
Subject: Re: squirrels in the attic update
Only one question remains... what *is* the Greek word for "squirrel"?
Mark O'Brien
Dallas Theological Seminary
------------------------------
From: "James D. Ernest" <ernest@mv.mv.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:24:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: squirrels in the attic update
On Wed, 20 Dec 1995, Mark O'Brien wrote:
>
> Only one question remains... what *is* the Greek word for "squirrel"?
>
Not so fast! This was a Reader Response anecdote: the reader
must either look it up or overcome the inevitable compulsive
urge to do so. And don't bother looking in the Bible; you'll
have to do your squirrel-hunting in the Attic. (Or, if you wimp
out, just try your Merriam-Webster s.v. squirrel).
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
James D. Ernest Joint Doctoral Program
Manchester, New Hampshire, USA Andover-Newton/Boston College
Internet: ernest@mv.mv.com Chestnut Hill, Massachusetts
------------------------------
From: Nichael Lynn Cramer <nichael@sover.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:59:53 -0400
Subject: Re: squirrels in the attic update
Paul Dixon - Ladd Hill Bible Church wrote:
> Just thought I'd bring everybody up to date on the squirrel dilemma.
> [... "Squirrels in the Attic" puns and others deleted ...]
Just get him his own internet-access account. The fresh supply of nuts
should keep him occupied for a long, long time.
N
Merry Christmas, ol' net.buddies!
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 12:36:51 -0600
Subject: Re: squirrels in the attic update
At 12:24 PM 12/20/95, James D. Ernest wrote:
>On Wed, 20 Dec 1995, Mark O'Brien wrote:
>
>>
>> Only one question remains... what *is* the Greek word for "squirrel"?
>>
>Not so fast! This was a Reader Response anecdote: the reader
>must either look it up or overcome the inevitable compulsive
>urge to do so. And don't bother looking in the Bible; you'll
>have to do your squirrel-hunting in the Attic. (Or, if you wimp
>out, just try your Merriam-Webster s.v. squirrel).
For goodness' sake, James, we have to have the ATTIC word for it? Won't a
KOINE' word suffice (if we can find one)?
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: Jim Beale <jbeale@gdeb.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 14:15:47 EST
Subject: Re: squirrels in the attic update
On Dec 20, 1995 Mark O'Brien wrote:
> Only one question remains... what *is* the Greek word for "squirrel"?
My research has uncovered two words, one of which is quite like the
english word, the other is more relevant to the current situation.
The more relevant word is PHEROIKOS, which is a white animal
like a squirrel. There is a little-known passage in Hesiod which
seems of great relevance to the current discussion. Hesiod informs his
readers that when the pesky PHEREOIKOS (which is obviously a copyist
error and should read PHEROIKOS, as the house that they carry is not
their own but that of Dr. Dixon, they would have to be very large
squirrels indeed. But this is absurd, hence the necessary conclusion of
a copyist error:) begins to climb, the great time of harvest has begun:
But when the PHEREOIKOS climbs up the plants from the
earth to escape the Pleiades, then it is no longer the
season for digging vineyards, but to whet your sickles
and rouse up your slaves. Avoid shady seats and sleeping
until dawn in the harvest season . . .
(Hesiod, Works and Days, 571)
I doubt if the particular relevance of this quote escapes the great
scholars on this list. Dr. Dixon, who has just recently made available
his work on evangelism, has PHEROIKOS in his attic. Since Jesus, in
the gospel of John, says,
Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh
harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and
look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
(John 4:35)
He equates evangelism with the harvest. And as Hesiod has instructed
us to "avoid shady seats and sleeping until dawn in the harvest season"
which begins when the PHEROIKOS climbs up the plants (there is a
practical issue here as well) the time of the harvest has begun. The
lesson to both Dr. Dixon and all of us should be quite apparent. We
should take the gospel now to every creature. Awake thou sleepy-head,
and rise from the dead [as it were], and Christ will give you light.
Oh, BTW, the other word, not particularly relevant, is
SKIOUROS, shadow-tail, i.e. squirrel
- --
In Christ,
Jim Beale
___________________________________________________________________
Now, this is the work I have to do, to make out this conclusion
to you, that any affliction is to be chosen rather than any sin;
that there is more evil in any sin, the least sin, than in the
greatest affliction.
(Jeremiah Burroughs, "The Exceeding Sinfulness of Sin", pg. 2)
___________________________________________________________________
------------------------------
From: Rod Decker <rdecker@inf.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 03:58:40 -0600
Subject: Re: ANASTAS, EUQUS IN MARK
Mark Penner wrote:
>And while I'm on the topic, what about EUQUS in Mark? If it really is
>superfluous, why do so many English versions have "immediately" so
>often?
>
In Mark 'euthus' has a much wider range of meaning than just 'immediately.'
It often means simply 'next' (i.e,, the next thing I want to say is...).
'Kai euthus' is often equivalent to 'kai' alone. If you check the frequency
stats of 'euthus' in Mark against the other gospels you'll find it to be a
definite Markan word--more uses in Mark alone than all others combined. The
NASB and Gundry's comm. on Mark appear to translate 'euthus' rather
mechanically in Mark. NIV does a much better job of being sensitive to the
contextual force and range of the word.
Rod
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rodney J. Decker Calvary Theological Seminary
Asst. Prof./NT 15800 Calvary Rd.
rdecker@inf.net Kansas City, Missouri 64147
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 14:00:13 -0600
Subject: Re: squirrels in the attic update
At 12:24 PM 12/20/95, James D. Ernest wrote:
>On Wed, 20 Dec 1995, Mark O'Brien wrote:
>
>>
>> Only one question remains... what *is* the Greek word for "squirrel"?
>>
>Not so fast! This was a Reader Response anecdote: the reader
>must either look it up or overcome the inevitable compulsive
>urge to do so. And don't bother looking in the Bible; you'll
>have to do your squirrel-hunting in the Attic. (Or, if you wimp
>out, just try your Merriam-Webster s.v. squirrel).
Well, I think anyone could have found this out readily, and one didn't even
need to go to Merriam-Webster. The surprising thing is that "squirrel" is
derived from the Greek in the first place! SKI/OUROS: "shadow-tail,"
Latinized as "Sciurus." And the word probably is pretty old, though I
haven't tried to do a word-search on TLG for it. Pliny the Elder refers to
it in the _Natural History_, and then Oppian in the 2d c. A.D. mentions it
in his work on Hunting.
I was expecting something more exotic like the German "Eichkatze"
(oak-cat). But "shadow-tail" or perhaps "mirage-tail" is a pretty neat
description, methinks.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: "Keith A. Clay" <keithc@ramlink.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 17:36:15 -0500
Subject: Re: squirrels in the attic update
>At 12:24 PM 12/20/95, James D. Ernest wrote:
>>On Wed, 20 Dec 1995, Mark O'Brien wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Only one question remains... what *is* the Greek word for "squirrel"?
>>>
>>Not so fast! This was a Reader Response anecdote: the reader
>>must either look it up or overcome the inevitable compulsive
>>urge to do so. And don't bother looking in the Bible; you'll
>>have to do your squirrel-hunting in the Attic. (Or, if you wimp
>>out, just try your Merriam-Webster s.v. squirrel).
>
>Well, I think anyone could have found this out readily, and one didn't even
>need to go to Merriam-Webster. The surprising thing is that "squirrel" is
>derived from the Greek in the first place! SKI/OUROS: "shadow-tail,"
>Latinized as "Sciurus." And the word probably is pretty old, though I
>haven't tried to do a word-search on TLG for it. Pliny the Elder refers to
>it in the _Natural History_, and then Oppian in the 2d c. A.D. mentions it
>in his work on Hunting.
>
>I was expecting something more exotic like the German "Eichkatze"
>(oak-cat). But "shadow-tail" or perhaps "mirage-tail" is a pretty neat
>description, methinks.
>
>Carl W. Conrad
>Department of Classics, Washington University
>One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
>(314) 935-4018
>cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
>WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
>
>
>
>
I knew this list would be useful. I should like to take my greek teacher on
a hunting trip and impress him with my new found Greek knowledge. Then I
will agonize the fact that he did not know what it was. Of course, I have
never been hunting, so hopefully I won't shoot him first.
keith a. clay
learning some new in greek everyday
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keith A. Clay Tri-State Oxygen, Inc
4013 Blackburn Avenue 2927 Greenup Avenue
Ashland, KY 41101-5019 P.O. Box 121
(606)325-8331 Ashland, KY 41105-0121
(606)329-9638
(800)828-1620
School Address:
100 Academic Parkway
Kentucky Christian College
Box 171
Grayson, KY 41143
e-mail: keithc@ramlink.net
Fax: (606)325-8331 -- my computer answers both my phone and receives faxes.
(606)325-9962 -- Tri-State Oxygen fax
==========================================================================
"Christianity has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found
difficult and left untried." -- G. K. Chesterton
==========================================================================
------------------------------
From: JClar100@aol.com
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 18:02:45 -0500
Subject: Test
Test
------------------------------
From: Mark Penner <mark.penner@jemanet.or.jp>
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 01:48:00 GMT
Subject: "ANDRES" IN ACTS SPE
CC> >What is the translational significance of ANDRES in Luke 1:16 and
CC> 2:14
CC> You did say ACTS speeches in the subject header, and it became clear
CC> once I looked up the GOSPEL of Luke 1:16 and 2:14 that you couldn't
CC> be referring to those verses, but this is confusing!
CC> (unintentionally, of course)
BIG TIME APOLOGIES!! For some reason I do this all the time. It confuses
*me* when I look for my Acts folder and can't find it because it's
labelled "Luke." For some reason, Acts is inseperably connected in my
brain with its author.
And thanks for the input. It certainly *seemed* like a formula of
address, but you want to avoid making a translation decision just on a
hunch. It will be *much* more natural in JSL (Japanese Sign Language) to
translate it people.
Many thanks for your help.
Mark
_______________________________________________________________________
Mark & Mary Esther Penner CBInternational
Tokyo, Japan
* RM 1.3 02234 * The pursuit of perfection often impedes improvement. G Will
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #53
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