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b-greek-digest V1 #95
b-greek-digest Tuesday, 30 January 1996 Volume 01 : Number 095
In this issue:
Re: ponies/DSS
Subject: I Sam 1 questions
YHWH in LXX
re: Majority Text
using lexicons and learning Greek
introduction
Re: using lexicons and learning Greek
transliteration on B-Greek
Sigma
Re: "=future subjunctive!"
Thanks for the transliteration schemes
On Conrad's "using lexicons & learning Greek"
[none]
Using Perseus
Re: free sentence/clause reference of pronouns
Re: Using Perseus
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Timster132@aol.com
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 03:17:41 -0500
Subject: Re: ponies/DSS
Kenneth Litwak <kenneth@sybase.com> wrote on 25 Jan 1996...
<< this Spring I'm taking a course in Qumran Lit.,
and we are going to read the DSS in their original, unpointed Hebrew.
Since my Hebrew knowledge is still developing (then again, who can claim to
know
biblical or Qumran Hebrew perfectly?), there will likely be times when I'm
unsure how to point something. I'd be a fool to decide, after consulting
BDB,
that when I'm unsure I still must be right even if Lohse's pointing is
different. One can read the philological material as much as one wants. It
is
nevertheless the case that someone accustmoed to a regular diet of Qumran
Hebrew is going to be be more likely to correctly point the text than
a comparative amateur, and no amount of biblical Hebrew I've done prepares me
fully for reading the DSS, where the rules of the game change considerably,
JUST EXACTLY like moving from NT Greek to any other flavor of Greek.>>
If you're reading Bible texts from the DSS, and you're familiar with the
Hebrew Bible, you shouldn't have too much trouble. Its like the Greek NT
manuscripts in that it is scriptori continuum (no space between the letters
of the text). With reading Hebrew, you're used to seeing the consonants
together and that helps in identifying words in the unpointed texts.
I found the Hebrew text of the _Manual of Discipline_ much harder to read
since I was not very familiar with the text in English. Still, if you are
familiar with Hebrew trliterates, you can make some headway with some
logical guesses. You might be surpised how well you do!
One of the great things about reading Greek or Hebrew lit. outside of the
Biblical texts is that you really do start to depend on your skills. One
problem with reading Scripture texts is that the "pony" is in your mind
if you have read the Bible a lot.
BTW, DSS literature is less often called "Qumran lit" in some scholarly
circles,
since many grave weakness have been demonstrated in the theory that the
scrolls found in the caves were written solely by a community at the Qumran
site. It is beginning to look like the scrolls represent a variety of groups
within Judaism during the 2nd Temple period, and not the work of a single
group or sect.
Peace,
Tim Staker, pastor
Poseyville Christian Church
Poseyville, IN USA
Timster132@aol.com
http://home.aol.com/Timster132
------------------------------
From: Timster132@aol.com
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 03:18:26 -0500
Subject: Subject: I Sam 1 questions
Kenneth Litwak <kenneth@sybase.com> wrote on 26 Jan 1996 ...
<<First, on the KJV and Dt 6, I believe the word in question is PERIKUKLWi
(why it's dative I don't know). LSJM say it means "round about". That
sounds
like they borrowed this definition from the KJV, rather than offering an
actual definition. Even if they didn't, that's a gloss if I'ver ever seen
one.>>
Just to add a word to Carl Conrad's suggestions. Here's a case where you
need
to get a feel for how words work. While you can read the sentence literally
as "around a circle", look at the context for meaning.
<<Now, I've noticed in 1 Sam 1 that the translator often transliterates
divine titles, rather than translating them like KURION SABAWQ. I'm
wondering
if list members think the LXX in these cases whold similarly be
transliterated
(and this makes me doubt the Hebrew knowledge of the LXX translator, along
with other things he/she did) or whether it is preferable to render words
like ELWAI and SABAWQ with a real translation of the Hebrew word?>>
The transliterating of titles here is not surprising, since this translation
was made for Greek speaking Jews who were no doubt at least familiar with
some
Hebrew appellations for God. I think you'll find that the transliteration of
some
words as well as other Hebraisms (in certain places) tend to make you rather
wonder
if the translators of the LXX knew _Greek_ as well as they did Hebrew.
<<In 1 Sam 1:8, we read hINA TI. Dana and Mantey says this regularly
means "why?", though I think it could very reasonably be taken to mean
"what's the matter, so that you....". Would this be the geerally
accepted view, that it means "Why?" ? >>
Here again is another example of how you need to look beyond simple literal
sense and get a feel for how words work together. Just because English only
uses a single word for the interrogative 'why?', doesn't mean other languages
won't. Like the Spanish using "Por que", Greek uses 'INA TI.
Words are very flexible things, and that is what makes our work an art more
than a science.
Keep at it. It'll come.
Tim Staker, pastor
Poseyville Christian Church
Poseyville, IN USA
Timster132@aol.com
http://home.aol.com/Timster132
------------------------------
From: Timster132@aol.com
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 04:24:23 -0500
Subject: YHWH in LXX
From: "Wes C. Williams" <71414.3647@compuserve.com> writes on 29 Jan 96:
>Summary: The LXX copies in pre-Christian times retained the divine name.
>The evidence is that the substitution of YHWH for Kyrios in LXX copies began
>after the first century C.E. (or perhaps late first century)....
Impressive list. Great work.
>"From these findings we can now say with almost absolute certainty that the
>divine name, YHWH, was not rendered by [Kyrios] in the pre-Christian Greek
>Bible, as so often has been thought."
This is really the kicker, in my opinion. For years it has been stressed
that when NT writers spoke of IHSOUS KURIOS ( IC KC as nomina sacra in the
mss), there was a direct connection of Jesus with the KURIOS of the LXX.
Since many of the later copies we have of the LXX have been transcribed by
Christian scribes, it seems that that connection was made much later.
Thanks again, Wes.
Tim Staker, pastor
Poseyville Christian Church
Poseyville, IN USA
Timster132@aol.com
http://home.aol.com/Timster132
------------------------------
From: Timster132@aol.com
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 04:24:28 -0500
Subject: re: Majority Text
On 29-Jan-96 Paul Watkins, 102737,1761 writes...
>Those interested in the new 1991 Majority text (NOT the TR)
>The New Testament in the Original Greek According to the Majority/
>Byzantine Textform by Robinson/Pierpont, 1991.....The text itself is in near
>manuscript format, fully delimited of punctuation, accents, breathing marks,
>capitalization and paragraphing. It is thus laid out in uncial form but
with
>miniscule lettering (all lowercase except for book titles) and spacing
between
>words.
Interesting... since the *majority* of manuscripts have accent marks,
punctuation, breathing marks, in minuscule form, but not a "lowercase"
lettering.
>Chapter/verse numbers are added for reference. There is no
>textual apparatus cluttering up the page at the bottom or in the
>margin, and the type is very neat and readable. Recommended only for
>people who know Greek (those who don't should use an Strong's coded
>interlinear).
Recommended for people who know Greek but don't know texutal criticism... who
wants to be cluttered up with all those apparati? :)
Still, I imagine the type reads better than the Nestle 4th edition!
"Critically" yours,
Tim Staker, pastor
Poseyville Christian Church
Poseyville, IN USA
Timster132@aol.com
http://home.aol.com/Timster132
CLW: (800)-447-9142, $16.49 (Get an LITV and New Interlinear Bible while
Item: WDROBINS&01 you're at it- this is the only place!)
CBD: (508)-977-5000, $18.95 (May not still be carried)
Item: 54434
Paul Watkins
Grace College and Seminary
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 08:13:25 -0600
Subject: using lexicons and learning Greek
Please forgive the patronizing tone of this. I have been tutoring a few
students in NT Greek recently and meditating much over the attitudes that
foster success in learning it and that inhibit success in learning it. For
what it's worth, I'd just like to offer the following thoughts, most of
which are probably obvious to many list readers.
Many on this list are accomplished scholars in the GNT, but many are also
in the process of learning the Greek of the NT, and in a deeper sense, I'd
say we are all in the process of learning the Greek of the NT. So I want to
offer some thoughts on means and ends in learning the Greek of the NT with
regard to texts and lexicons that I hope may be helpful, particularly when
one considers the number of hours that are spent puzzling through texts
that begrudge you their meanings and poring over lexicon entries that seem
to be pages long and (superficially) as meaningless as the sequence of
names in a telephone directory.
A student of the New Testament can readily come to hate an unabridged Greek
lexicon. She or he is endeavoring to learn Greek with the primary if not in
fact sole purpose of reading the GNT. In itself that is a reasonable and
laudable objective, but it has to be understood and actualized in a much
broader context for the obvious reason that the Greek language really
wasn't created for the purpose of writing the GNT (however much one wants
to praise (or blame) God for choosing to have the NT written in Greek). One
has to see that the NT is one complex of documents written in a language
used by people over a very broad geographical area for every purpose for
which one uses any language. Consequently, although one may aim ultimately
at reading of the NT with one's acquired facility in Koine Greek, one must
learn the language and make learning the language--for the time
being--one's primary objective. What this means is that any text--be it
from the NT, from the LXX, from an Apostolic Father, or from a papyrus
letter--any text that you undertake to read must be seen not as an end in
itself but as a means to learn some more Greek. So one isn't aiming at
working out an acceptable English equivalent of that text; rather you're
aiming at understanding the Greek of that text and increasing one's
knowledge of Greek through that text. The lexicon is one's friend, and the
fuller the lexicon entry on a noun, verb, or whatnot, the greater the
opportunity one has to expand his or her knowledge of Greek. If one views
it as a hindrance, as a mass of verbiage to scan in order to find the one
workable gloss that matches the phrasing of your text passage, then one
won't learn anything from it and is likely to miss most of what he or she
could have learned from consulting the lexicon on that word. One needs to
labor "lovingly" (I use the word deliberately) over the array of structured
meanings and relationships between meanings suggested in a lexicon entry
and one should seek to ascertain the logic and psychological probabilities
accounting for the ramifications of meanings from the primary to secondary
and tertiary levels. A word, after all, is not, however much similarity it
may have to a mathematical sign, is not a mathematical sign, but a page or
a chapter in the history of human experience, loaded with metaphorical
leaps and powerful emotional overtones and undertones. Words have
personalities that need to be learned, as best one can learn them, and just
as it is hard, perhaps impossible to know fully (EPIGNWNAI?) the spouse one
has lived with for decades, so it is impossible to acquire any sense of a
word whose lexicon entry one scans superficially in order to find a meaning
that "fits" the context of what one's reading.
May I suggest, therefore, that language learning be treated as an end in
itself while one is in the process of learning it. The passage that one is
reading and the lexicon that one consults are means to that end and should
be exploited toward that end. The translation of the passage is at best a
by-product of learning; much to be preferred is an understanding of how the
passage conveys its thoughts and feelings through the linguistic medium it
employs; it is to be viewed and grasped as an expression of a
Greek-thinking person and one should endeavor to make it a means to assist
one to become a Greek-thinking person onself. Ultimately this may be
helpful when one endeavors to read and interpret the inspired texts
transmitted to us by the Greek-thinking persons who put into writing our
New Testament.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: Kevin Paszalek <pkevinp@soho.ios.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 11:05:35 -0500
Subject: introduction
Well, I have been enjoying "reading over your shoulders" more or less
anonymously for a while now, and thought that I had better introduce
myself.
I am a pastor in Houston, TX. I enjoy working in the Greek NT but have
nothing like the exegetical skills displayed here. However, I find all of
the discussions to be interesting and informative.
Is there a file showing the standard transliteration used in this group?
Thanks, all.
Kevin Paszalek
Sr. Pastor
Southway Community Church
Houston, TX
------------------------------
From: "Burton J. Rozema" <rozema@mcs.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 11:01:06 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: using lexicons and learning Greek
Let me add an "amen" to what Carl Conrad has written in this post. It is
something I have tried to convey to students for many years. As always,
Professor Conrad makes being a lurker on this list a rewarding
experience for me. Keep up your inciteful and very learned responses!
________________________________________________________________________
Burton J. Rozema Phone: 708-239-4760
VP Academic Affairs FAX: 708-385-5665
Trinity Christian College email: rozema@mcs.net
Palos Heights, IL 60463
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
(And Professor of Classics)
On Tue, 30 Jan 1996, Carl W. Conrad wrote:
> Please forgive the patronizing tone of this. I have been tutoring a few
> students in NT Greek recently and meditating much over the attitudes that
> foster success in learning it and that inhibit success in learning it. For
> what it's worth, I'd just like to offer the following thoughts, most of
> which are probably obvious to many list readers.
>
> Many on this list are accomplished scholars in the GNT, but many are also
> in the process of learning the Greek of the NT, and in a deeper sense, I'd
> say we are all in the process of learning the Greek of the NT. So I want to
> offer some thoughts on means and ends in learning the Greek of the NT with
> regard to texts and lexicons that I hope may be helpful, particularly when
> one considers the number of hours that are spent puzzling through texts
> that begrudge you their meanings and poring over lexicon entries that seem
> to be pages long and (superficially) as meaningless as the sequence of
> names in a telephone directory.
>
> A student of the New Testament can readily come to hate an unabridged Greek
> lexicon. She or he is endeavoring to learn Greek with the primary if not in
> fact sole purpose of reading the GNT. In itself that is a reasonable and
> laudable objective, but it has to be understood and actualized in a much
> broader context for the obvious reason that the Greek language really
> wasn't created for the purpose of writing the GNT (however much one wants
> to praise (or blame) God for choosing to have the NT written in Greek). One
> has to see that the NT is one complex of documents written in a language
> used by people over a very broad geographical area for every purpose for
> which one uses any language. Consequently, although one may aim ultimately
> at reading of the NT with one's acquired facility in Koine Greek, one must
> learn the language and make learning the language--for the time
> being--one's primary objective. What this means is that any text--be it
> from the NT, from the LXX, from an Apostolic Father, or from a papyrus
> letter--any text that you undertake to read must be seen not as an end in
> itself but as a means to learn some more Greek. So one isn't aiming at
> working out an acceptable English equivalent of that text; rather you're
> aiming at understanding the Greek of that text and increasing one's
> knowledge of Greek through that text. The lexicon is one's friend, and the
> fuller the lexicon entry on a noun, verb, or whatnot, the greater the
> opportunity one has to expand his or her knowledge of Greek. If one views
> it as a hindrance, as a mass of verbiage to scan in order to find the one
> workable gloss that matches the phrasing of your text passage, then one
> won't learn anything from it and is likely to miss most of what he or she
> could have learned from consulting the lexicon on that word. One needs to
> labor "lovingly" (I use the word deliberately) over the array of structured
> meanings and relationships between meanings suggested in a lexicon entry
> and one should seek to ascertain the logic and psychological probabilities
> accounting for the ramifications of meanings from the primary to secondary
> and tertiary levels. A word, after all, is not, however much similarity it
> may have to a mathematical sign, is not a mathematical sign, but a page or
> a chapter in the history of human experience, loaded with metaphorical
> leaps and powerful emotional overtones and undertones. Words have
> personalities that need to be learned, as best one can learn them, and just
> as it is hard, perhaps impossible to know fully (EPIGNWNAI?) the spouse one
> has lived with for decades, so it is impossible to acquire any sense of a
> word whose lexicon entry one scans superficially in order to find a meaning
> that "fits" the context of what one's reading.
>
> May I suggest, therefore, that language learning be treated as an end in
> itself while one is in the process of learning it. The passage that one is
> reading and the lexicon that one consults are means to that end and should
> be exploited toward that end. The translation of the passage is at best a
> by-product of learning; much to be preferred is an understanding of how the
> passage conveys its thoughts and feelings through the linguistic medium it
> employs; it is to be viewed and grasped as an expression of a
> Greek-thinking person and one should endeavor to make it a means to assist
> one to become a Greek-thinking person onself. Ultimately this may be
> helpful when one endeavors to read and interpret the inspired texts
> transmitted to us by the Greek-thinking persons who put into writing our
> New Testament.
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University
> One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
> (314) 935-4018
> cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
> WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
>
>
>
------------------------------
From: Bruce Terry <terry@bible.acu.edu>
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 13:47:57 CST
Subject: transliteration on B-Greek
On Tue, 30 Jan 1996, Kevin Paszalek wrote:
>Is there a file showing the standard transliteration used in this group?
This is on the archive, but the software there compresses the white space so
as to make it unusable, so I post it again.
There is no standard transliteration scheme on B-Greek. However, most people
will use one of the following six schemes. Note that these schemes use either
upper case or lower case, not both, since a change in case may signify a
different letter.
LETTERS TLG/CCAT Simplified Modified Standard
ACCENTS Beta Code CAPS Lower CAPS Lower Digraph
alpha A A a A a a
beta B B b B b b
gamma G G g G g g
delta D D d D d d
epsilon E E e E e e
zeta Z Z z Z z z
eta H H E H E E
theta Q Q q Q q th
iota I I i I i i
kappa K K k K k k
lambda L L l L l l
mu M M m M m m
nu N N n N n n
xi C C c X x x
omicron O O o O o o
pi P P p P p p
rho R R r R r r
sigma S S s S s s
tau T T t T t t
upsilon U U u U u u
phi F F f F f ph
chi X X x C c ch
psi Y Y y V v ps
omega W W O W O O
digamma V f w
koppa q q
iota subscript | i i
smooth breathing )
rough breathing ( h ( h h h
acute accent / / / /
circumflex accent = @ = ~
grave accent \ \ \ \
diaeresis +
The following are the same for all schemes.
upper case *
(following character is upper case)
apostrophe '
hyphen -
comma ,
period .
raised dot (colon) :
question mark :
dash _
Note that both medial and final sigma are transliterated the same.
Accents are usually omitted for all schemes except TLG unless they are
necessary for the sense of the post.
Breathing marks and the * to indicate upper-case are written at the beginning
of the word.
Accents and diacritical marks are written directly after the coding for the
character above and below which they are located in the source document. They
follow the second character of a diphthong.
Note on TLG/CCAT Beta code keyboard layout: This was originally created to
enable appropriate software programs to translate TLG coded texts into
different Greek fonts used by different platforms.
********************************************************************************
Bruce Terry E-MAIL: terry@bible.acu.edu
Box 8426, ACU Station Phone: 915/674-3759
Abilene, Texas 79699 Fax: 915/674-3769
********************************************************************************
------------------------------
From: Eric Weiss <eweiss@acf.dhhs.gov>
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 96 12:20:36 EST
Subject: Sigma
I understand (I learned 1st year Greek from Mounce's book) that in verb
formation, the sigma normally drops out when it's between two vowels, and the
two vowels then contract. (also see Smyth 120)
Why is this not true for the sigma in the tense formatives for the 1st aorist
and future tenses? Smyth (666 -- cf. 20.b., 35.c.) seems to be addressing
this for the aorist, but only explains how the alpha came to be added to the
aorist tense formative, not why the sigma, now that it's between two vowels,
doesn't drop out.
Please cc: any responses to eweiss@acf.dhhs.gov (my e-mail address).
Thanks!
------------------------------
From: Mark O'Brien <Mark_O'Brien@dts.edu>
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 96 14:27:41 CST
Subject: Re: "=future subjunctive!"
Original message sent on Mon, Jan 29 10:06 AM by EHOBBS@wellesley.edu (Edward
Hobbs) :
>Metzger does not say that there is a future subjunctive. The meaning of
>his comment on page 564 of his "Textual Commentary" is that IF such a
>reading as KAUQHSWMAI were genuine, it would imply the existence of a
>future subjunctive, which would be (!). Nor does he mean by "The reading
>KAUQHSWMAI (=future subjunctive!), while appearing occasionally in Byzantine
>times..." that in Byzantine times they used a future subjunctive.
>Rather, he means that THIS READING appears occasionally in Byzantine times
>--and goes on to call it "a grammatical monstrosity." Similarly, Debrunner
>says that the interchange of W and O in this (and two other) instance(s)
>is worth mentioning "because they have furnished the occasion for the
>IMPOSSIBLE ACCEPTANCE OF A FUTURE SUBJUNCTIVE." (p. 15)
>Metzger isn't teaching that a "future subjunctive" exists; he is saying
>that it is both ridiculous (!) and a "granmmatical monstrosity."
The question remains, then: What is this form? Is it just an error on the part
of a scribe? In the light of the variant in 1Co 13:3, this is the majority
reading (cf. with Maurice Robinson's comments in another post), and one wonders
how such a "grammatical monstrosity" could have been perpetuated so extensively
without being corrected early in the piece. I guess it would help greatly to
know where else this form is to be found in Byzantine Greek.
>As usual, Carl Conrad is absolutely right; "Listen to him!"
I'm doing my level best to be "quick to listen and slow to speak"... it's a
pretty difficult discipline, I've found!
Regards,
Mark O'Brien
Grad. student, DTS
------------------------------
From: Kevin Paszalek <pkevinp@soho.ios.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 15:17:21 -0500
Subject: Thanks for the transliteration schemes
In response to my earlier question about transliteration schemes, on
B-Greek, I (quickly!!) was sent the same document by Carl Conrad, Bruce
Terry, Will Wagers.
Thanks to each of you for your helpfulness and initiative.
Kevin Paszalek
Sr. Pastor
Southway Community Church
Houston, TX
------------------------------
From: Edward Hobbs <EHOBBS@wellesley.edu>
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 16:26:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: On Conrad's "using lexicons & learning Greek"
Dear Colleagues on this List:
Carl Conrad's post this morning on "using lexicons and learning
Greek" is one of the finest statements I have ever seen on the subject. It
is what I have tried, dozens and dozens of times in the 48-plus years I
have taught Greek, to express; but Carl's formulation/expression of it is
so much better than anything I have ever managed, and so much better than
anything I have ever seen, that I wish it could be read and re-read daily
by every person learning Greek (and that certainly includes me, for I am
still learning to read Greek).
PLEASE download this wondrous short essay, and have it engraved in
stone or with gold letters--or, if you can't manage that, read it weekly
(or daily) to your Greek students, and to yourself as well.
As a (thoroughly inadequate) addendum, let me say that my teaching
has always rejected translation as the goal of reading a passage of Greek,
not only because it is not the point of studying Greek (actually, quite a
few [thousand] translations of the NT already exist, if you need one), but
because translation is a quite distinct skill from understanding, a skill
which is in fact rather rare.
Edward Hobbs
Wellesley
------------------------------
From: RJWILLIA@samford.edu
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 96 15:15:54 CST
Subject: [none]
Philippians 1.28
KAI MH PTUROMENOI EN MHDENI UPO TWN ANTIKEIMENWN, hHTIS ESTIN AUTOIS
ENDEIXIS APOLEIAS, UMWN DE SWTHRIAS, KAI TOUTO APO QEOU
To what does the KAI TOUTO APO QEOU refer? Can you provide the basic rule
of grammar/syntax on which you base your decision so I don't have to continue
beating my head against the wall?
Russell Williamson
------------------------------
From: Kenneth Litwak <kenneth@sybase.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 15:07:23 +0800
Subject: Using Perseus
Although I've seen posts about using Perseus with Greek fonts, I want to know
if it's possible, as it appears to be on the screen, to use English characters to
search for lexical entries? Has anyone on the list done this successfully?
When I tried, I got nasty Server errors. I went to the page for LSJ lexical
entries, typed in an English transliteration and got a nasty error back.
Thanks.
Ken Litwak
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 18:50:24 -0600
Subject: Re: free sentence/clause reference of pronouns
On 1/30/96, RJWILLIA@samford.edu wrote:
> Philippians 1.28
> KAI MH PTUROMENOI EN MHDENI UPO TWN ANTIKEIMENWN, hHTIS ESTIN AUTOIS
> ENDEIXIS APOLEIAS, UMWN DE SWTHRIAS, KAI TOUTO APO QEOU
>
> To what does the KAI TOUTO APO QEOU refer? Can you provide the basic rule
> of grammar/syntax on which you base your decision so I don't have to continue
> beating my head against the wall?
I would understand the antecedent of TOUTO to be the entire preceding
sequence from KAI MH ... through hUMWN DE SWTHRIAS, although one might
perhaps just as reasonably make it refer only to the clause hHTIS ESTIN ...
SWTHRIAS, and an argument could also be made that it refers primarily to
hUMWN SWTHRIA. At any rate, it is the FACT that the Philippians have not
been deterred by their opponents that points to the perishing of the
opponents and salvation of the Philippians. I'd say that in the last clause
Paul is indicating the indication or demonstration is something that has
come from God. You might perhaps expect that you'd have hAUTH instead of
the neuter TOUTO in order to make clear the reference back to ENDEIXIS, but
I really think that with the TOUTO Paul wants to say the steadfast
resistance of the Philippian congregation to opponents is itself something
for which to thank God, all the more so in that it is clear evidence of who
is being saved and who is not. The only term I have ever heard used for
this sort of construction (the neuter pronoun TOUTO referring back to the
previous proposition) is "sentence appositive," although I'm not sure it's
the best conceivable term for it. I only know that I myself used to beat my
head against the wall at seeing this again and again in Aristotle: neuter
pronouns without neuter antecedent, usually referring to the preceding
proposition as an antecedent. You can of course supply a predicate such as
ESTIN or EGENETO to the phrase KAI TOUTO APO QEOU.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 18:50:34 -0600
Subject: Re: Using Perseus
On 1/30/96, Kenneth Litwak wrote:
> Although I've seen posts about using Perseus with Greek fonts, I want
>to know
> if it's possible, as it appears to be on the screen, to use English
>characters to
> search for lexical entries? Has anyone on the list done this successfully?
> When I tried, I got nasty Server errors. I went to the page for LSJ lexical
> entries, typed in an English transliteration and got a nasty error back.
I think, Ken, that the only way to do this using the Roman letters rather
than the requisite Macintosh or Windoze fonts is to use the TLG beta code
to make your entries. As I recall, there's a nice graphic chart of the TLG
beta code at the Peseus web site in the instructions on how to use the
lexical resource.
Incidentally, for those who haven't heard (we do HEAR electronically, don't
we), there's another nice new resource just put in at the Perseus site:
verb paradigms and self-testing; the URL is
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/paralist
I cite the announcement made by Gregory Crane of Tufts, who heads the
Perseus Project, to the Classics List:
- ----------------------------
The WWW has finally made it possible for us to begin publishing and documenting
the morphological analysis software that allows Perseus to link oi)/sw with
fe/rw. The first offering on the Web actually may have some pedagogical
applications.
The very first rough incarnation of this is now up on the Web. It includes
a paradigm viewer for standard verbs, but it also includes a facility for
students to quiz themselves. This is only a first step, but it works well
enough for us to seek feedback.
Start with:http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/paralist
Then ask to see a paradigm of paideu/w, for example.
>From there you can generate a quiz.
The forms are generated "on the fly".
- ---------------------------------------
The same rules apply here: use Mac or Windoze fixed-width fonts or beta code.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #95
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