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b-greek-digest V1 #129
b-greek-digest Monday, 26 February 1996 Volume 01 : Number 129
In this issue:
===>> FREE 1 yr. Magazine Sub sent worldwide- 295+ Popular USA Titles
===>> FREE 1 yr. Magazine Sub sent worldwide- 295+ Popular USA Titles
Ignatius of Antioch - background
APOLLUMI
hIMATIZW
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Allison Eng <allison.eng30@uwcr.edu>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 06:45:13 +0900
Subject: ===>> FREE 1 yr. Magazine Sub sent worldwide- 295+ Popular USA Titles
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b-greek-digest Tuesday, 27 February 1996 Volume 01 : Number 130
In this issue:
Semitic & Greek Fonts
Re: APOLLUMI
Re: hIMATIZW
[none]
Re: Semitic & Greek Fonts
Re:
Titus 1:6
Re: Semitic & Greek Fonts
Re: Semitic & Greek Fonts
translation
help on graphe artios
Biblical Greek Text
Re: translation
Cc: b-greek@virginia.edu
Re: translation
Summary: Summary: Something from Nothing (shortish)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Martin <kerberos@server.indo.net.id>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 13:35:43 +0700
Subject: Semitic & Greek Fonts
I'm a Pagemaker user and I want to make a publication which include some
Greek, Hebrew, and maybe for the future I will need Arabic or Syriac. Is
there any font for all the language above ? And for Arabic,Hebrew, and
Syriac how can type from right to left using Pagemaker ?
Best regards
Martin
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 04:55:20 -0600
Subject: Re: APOLLUMI
On 2/25/96, Dale M. Wheeler wrote:
> Greetings fellow "voice"-ologists. Here's another interesting problem.
> APOLLUMI is listed in BAGD as only occuring in the Active and Middle, never
> the passive (BTW, if someone can figure out the cryptogram we refer to as
> Blass-Debrunner-Funk on this specific voice issue[I understand the rest],
> I'd appreciate it; ##92, 101). This apparently extends to the uses in the
> Pres, Impf, and Perf, where the forms are anomalous. Some of the tools
> declare, however, that certain forms are clearly passive, to wit: Matt 9:17
> (Perf); Mark 2:22 (Perf); 1Cor 8:11 (Perf); 1Cor 10:9 (Impf).
In the first place, these first three are actually present tenses rather
than perfect, but I suppose the point is that by form they could be passive
rather than middle.
Mt 9:17 APOLLUNTAI (pres.)(hOI ASKOI) "The wineskins become useless"
Mk 2:22 APOLLUTAI (pres.) (hO OINOS) "The wine goes to waste"
1 Cor 8:11 APOLLUTAI (pres.)(hO ASQENWN) "The sick man perishes"
1 Cor 10:9 APWLLUNTO (impf.) (hUPO TWN OFEWN) "They would die by the work
of snakes"
I say that all of these are middle voice, for reasons made clearer below.
> My question is whether these should be classified as Middle or Passive ??
> Now before you say they should definitely be passive, because, for example,
> 1Cor 10:9 has hUPO with the genitive associated with it, check out these
> other clearly middle passages: 1Cor 10:10; Matt 26:52. Well, what do
> you'all think ?
1 Cor 10:10 APWLONTO (hUPO TOU OLOQREUTOU)
Mt 26:52 APOLOUNTAI EN MAXAIRAi (hOI LABONTES MAXAIRAN)
I would definitely assign all these instances to the middle voice; I would,
in fact, want to see a form of this verb with a -QH- before admitting
there's a real passive to it.
APOLLUMI in the active voice means "cause to perish" (basically); in the
middle it means "to perish." When you add an "agent" construction (hUPO +
genitive) or an instrumental construction (EN + dative) to it, I suppose
some linguists might want to say it becomes passive, but I don't think it
really does. 1 Cor 10:10 clearly means "they met their doom at the hands of
the executioner."
This is really tricky. In classical Greek, we like to say that APOLLUMAI
functions as the passive of APOKTEINW, and that PIPTW functions as the
passive of BALLW, KEIMAI as the perfect passive of TIQHMI. There's a real
problem here with whether these verbs are to be described in terms of
function or morphology. I think one must be aware of both (one must "know"
each verb personally!), but personally I prefer to describe the verbs for
VOICE in terms of their morphology.
Historically there never was a distinct passive in Greek, although we may
with justification speak of the -QH- forms as functioning passives in the
aorist and future tenses. But the aorist "passive" uses active endings, and
the future "passive" uses middle endings. The embarrassing fact that proves
this to be true is that we have verbs like SPLAGXNIZOMAI with "passive"
aorists that cannot be construed in any passive function. So we draw up a
classification of "middle deponents" and "passive deponents" to help us
keep the verbs straight.
I don't really know enough I-E languages to test my theory, but I really
have the sense that the passive voice is "unnatural" in Indo-European
languages--it does develop historically, as one can see in Latin--but all
those "deponent" verbs that are so pesky to learn are really verbs in the
middle voice, and in Late Latin and Medieval Latin they revert to what they
always wanted to be in the first place--reflexive verbs.
It's probably my bias toward diachronic analysis of linguistic forms that
inclines me to classify these forms of APOLLUMAI as middle, but it seems to
me that there are lots and lots of these verbs that trip us up as to their
voice in those tenses where the forms could be EITHER middle OR passive.
And it may be that we would prefer to define or describe these verbs in
terms of function rather than morphology. But APWLLUNTO in 1 Cor 10:9 and
APWLONTO in 1 Cor 10:10 both have the agent construction. In terms of
function we might legitimately define both as passives, but in terms of
morphology we would be safer to define them both as middle voice.
Of course this is what makes learning Greek a source of headaches--there
are so many verbs that you can't just dump into lists to learn; you just
have to come to "know" them personally. They are, as Alice observed in
_Through the Looking Glass_, "a stubborn lot."
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 04:55:44 -0600
Subject: Re: hIMATIZW
On 2/25/96, Dale M. Wheeler wrote:
> Fellow Parse-ologist...How would you parse the Perf Ptcs of hIMATIZW in Mark
> 5:15; Luke 8:35 (only 2x in NT); Passive (=BAGD) or Middle ?? Cf., ENDUW,
> whenever it refers to one putting on one's clothes is parsed as middle
> (quite correctly and understandably). I seriously doubt that the demoniac's
> mom showed up to clothe him, or that the demons came back and did him a
> final favor for his longstanding hospitality, or that the prim and proper
> townsfolk came out to make sure he was clothed. Are we assuming that Jesus
> clothed him (ala Adam and Eve ??)? Or is this the DIVINE PASSIVE ?? I
> unfortunately don't have M&M at home to check the Koine uses to see if there
> are clear passives used in this sense. So what is the verdict ??
Well, here we go again. I was going to pass on this one, inasmuch as I've
already, in my post on APOLLUMI, indicated my preference for classification
as middle voice. But I couldn't resist the comment on the DIVINE PASSIVE; I
might prefer to call it the SUPERNATURAL PASSIVE. Of course, "they found
him dressed." In English we'd call this not a participle but an adjective,
but that's another questionable dichotomy. They found him in the state of
one who is fully clothed. There's not even any consideration of an agent;
the entire focus is on the present state of the erstwhile demoniac.
To digress again, let me refer to the marvelous construction one finds
repeatedly in Latin poetry, usually referred to as a "Greek accusative with
a passive participle." Here's an example from Aeneid 7.75-6 (describing,
with participles in the nominative sg. fem., Lavinia, the daughter of King
Latinus):
regalisque accensa comas, accensa coronam
insignem gemmis ...
One is taught to translate this something like, "And she, set on fire as to
her royal hair and set on fire as to her crown marked with jewels ..." One
is told that COMAS and CORONAM here are "Greek accusatives"--accusatives of
specification with a passive verb. But of course they are really direct
objects of the verb ACCENSA. How can that be--direct objects of a passive
participle? But it isn't really a passive participle, but a MIDDLE
participle. Or is it a DIVINE PASSIVE? No one will ever argue it should be
translated "having ignited her royal hair, having ignited her crown marked
with jewels," because that's awkward, and poor Lavinia didn't set herself
on fire: she CAUGHT fire. But the construction here is the same as that of
hIMATISMENON in the verses in Mark and Luke.
No doubt this is all very perverse of me, since we are confronted with the
practical problem of tagging these verbs for a computer concordance. The
happiest of unhappy alternatives, I think, is to mark hIMATISMENON in these
two verses as "middle-passive" and force the user to scratch her or his
head and make a decision in terms of personal preference. That is, the last
think you should expect is for grammarians to reach a consensus!
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: "Mark E. Burrill" <mburrill@vnet.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 06:27:37 -0500
Subject: [none]
SUBSCRIBE B-GREEK mburrill@vnet.net
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 05:27:55 -0600
Subject: Re: Semitic & Greek Fonts
On 2/26/96, Martin wrote:
> I'm a Pagemaker user and I want to make a publication which include some
> Greek, Hebrew, and maybe for the future I will need Arabic or Syriac. Is
> there any font for all the language above ? And for Arabic,Hebrew, and
> Syriac how can type from right to left using Pagemaker ?
I don't know the answer to your second question, and Ithink the answer
would bedifferent, depending on what platform--Windows or Mac--you are
using, but I don't think this Hebrew font is pointed, so you might just
type in the text backwards. We just a couple days ago had this note from
Scholars Press about new free TrueType fonts, which I cite:
- ------------
Scholars Press has updated its public domain TrueType fonts available on
its FTP site. We have Hebrew (SPTiberian), Greek (SPIonic), Syriac
(SPEdessa), and Transliteration (SPAtlantis) fonts currently available.
Changes from earlier versions include additional characters in the
transliteration font, vowels and other characters added to the Syriac
font, and cosmetic changes to all the fonts. Feel free to download and
use the fonts. Comments are welcome.
URLs: ftp://scholar.cc.emory.edu/pub/fonts/mac
ftp://scholar.cc.emory.edu/pub/fonts/windows
- -----------------------------
I hope this helps. cwc
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 08:43:45 -0600
Subject: Re:
On 2/26/96, Mark E. Burrill wrote:
> SUBSCRIBE B-GREEK mburrill@vnet.net
You must send this to majordomo@virginia.edu
When sent to b-greek@virginia.edu, your message is simply distributed to
the entire list.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: z_vaughanje@titan.sfasu.edu
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 12:37:21 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Titus 1:6
Is there any reason to believe that "pistos" here refers to anything
other than believing in Christ, etc., i.e., a Christian? I sincerely hope
this doesn't start a theological war, or even a battle, but I'm not familiar
enough with this word and how it is used in the NT. My experience is
that unless otherwise stated, it is understood to be referring to a
believing Christian (I Tim. 4:12,5:16,6:2). It was brought up in a
Wednesday Bible class and any help you can provide will be appreciated.
Please respond directly to me, because I'm not currently subscribed to
B-Greek. Thank you.
Eric Vaughan
- -> Usually you put who you are and what your position is,
but I'm just a lowly college student (a Physics and Math
major), so I don't have an important position :( <-
Stephen F. Austin State Univ.
Nacogdoches, TX
------------------------------
From: David Moore <dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 13:44:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Semitic & Greek Fonts
On Mon, 26 Feb 1996, Martin wrote:
> I'm a Pagemaker user and I want to make a publication which include some
> Greek, Hebrew, and maybe for the future I will need Arabic or Syriac. Is
> there any font for all the language above ? And for Arabic,Hebrew, and
> Syriac how can type from right to left using Pagemaker ?
>
For Greek, Hebrew and Coptic, I would recommend you try WinGreek
which you can download as shareware from several sites on the internet.
With a TSR program called "Beta" (not in the "software-in-development"
sense of that word) which comes with WinGreek, you can easily enter fully
accented Greek - diacritical marks and all -, and you can enter Hebrew
right to left with vowel pointing. It works with most word processors
under Windows, but since you get to try before you buy, you could check it
out under Page Maker.
It is essentially a set of fonts that you use with your word
processor. The execution of the fonts on a laser printer is excellent -
even publication quality.
Regards,
David L. Moore Southeastern Spanish District
Miami, Florida of the Assemblies of God
dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us Department of Education
http://members.aol.com/dvdmoore
------------------------------
From: "B-GREEK Conference @ omaccess.com" <XINCLXB-GREEK@omaccess.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 96 15:00:32 EDT
Subject: Re: Semitic & Greek Fonts
On the Mac, there is a desk accessory which will allow you to type from right
to left (obviously useful for Hebrew).
When I was an undergrad, we had this on the Macs at the Gordon College
computer lab and it worked great.
I just can't remember the name of the utility off-hand. If you are in great
need, just e-mail me and I can find out for you.
Sincerely,
Theo Nicolakis
(theo@omaccess.com)
- --
.=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=.=-=-=.=-=-=.=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=.
Sent via Orthodox Ministry Access
"A Dynamic Ministry Resource Tool for Orthodox Christians"
WWW Home Page: http://www.omaccess.com/usr/om/home_page
Difficulty reports: root@gw.maceast.com
Phone/fax (617) 975-0119
.=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=.=-=-=.=-=-=.=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=.
------------------------------
From: brent justin anduaga-arias <barias@unm.edu>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 13:11:49 -0700 (MST)
Subject: translation
The RSV in 1st John 5:13 states "I write THIS to you..." All of my
other English translations have "I write THESE THINGS to you..." Is
there a grammatical reason for the RSV's departure or is it just
"translator's liberty?"
Also, in Hebrews 10:12 some of my English translations say "...offered
FOR ALL TIME..." while others say "...sat down FOREVER..." The Greek word
(which is being translated variously as indicated) seems to have
ambiguity as to what its object is. Does the confusion arise purely from
ambiguity of grammar or is context contributing to the translator's
differences?
Again, in Romans 3:25 the RSV says "... to be received BY faith." The
Greek word here is DIA, which I have always presumed means "through" - by
which other translations indeed render this word. Can someone tell me if
there is a grammatic reason for "by" or is it again just "translator's
liberty?"
I give thanks in advance for any assistance offered.
Brent Arias
University of New Mexico.
------------------------------
From: brent justin anduaga-arias <barias@unm.edu>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 16:15:00 -0700 (MST)
Subject: help on graphe artios
I have a list of questions pertaining to 2nd Timothy 3:15-17.
First, v17 uses 'artios' and 'exartizo.' I have heard raging debates
about whether the words mean: 'equipped' and 'furnished' respectively, or
something stronger: 'complete' and 'fully furnished' respectively. Any
thoughts out there on this?
Regardless of which is correct, I also would like to know (since I am
just beginning to learn Greek) if the three verses are truly conveying
the thought that ALL doctrine necessary for faith and practice are found
in scripture, or is this idea something that has been read into the text
for Reformation polemics?
Now for some more specific questions: Does the 'teaching, refutation,
and correction' address 'righteousness' as part of the 'training in
righteousness' phrase or are they distinct? In other words, could the
thought be legally reworded like this: 'teaching in righteousness,
refutation for righteousness, correction for righteousnes, and training in
righteousness' - without doing damage to Paul's intention?
What about verse 16's 'didaskalion?' It seems to me this word does in
fact just mean 'teaching.' However I have noticed that it is common for
some English translations to render it as 'doctrine' here as elsewhere.
Any comments?
------------------------------
From: "Stanley W. Bray" <stbray@mailbox.syr.edu>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 18:21:09 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Biblical Greek Text
I am part of a Biblical Hebrew Study Group. We just completed Biblical
Hebrew by Kittel et al and are moving on to an intermediate level text.
My question is, can you make a recommendation on a Biblical Greek text
that takes a similar approach or would make a good beginning Greek
textbook?
Thanks,
Stan Bray
------------------------------
From: David Rising <rising@epix.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 19:20:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: translation
On Mon, 26 Feb 1996, brent justin anduaga-arias wrote:
>
> The RSV in 1st John 5:13 states "I write THIS to you..." All of my
> other English translations have "I write THESE THINGS to you..." Is
> there a grammatical reason for the RSV's departure or is it just
> "translator's liberty?"
THIS comes from OUTOS (singular) in the form TAUTA (plural, Neut or Acc).
It appears as though the RSV translators were using THIS in a
plural/collective sense. We do that when we speak because it is more
smooth. For instance, I am writing THIS note to you, but I could have
send that I was writing THESE THINGS to you. I don't see any textual
variants showing the singular form. I don't have an RSV with me right
now, but it would be interesting to see how they treated TAUTA in other
passages.
> Also, in Hebrews 10:12 some of my English translations say "...offered
> FOR ALL TIME..." while others say "...sat down FOREVER..." The Greek word
> (which is being translated variously as indicated) seems to have
> ambiguity as to what its object is. Does the confusion arise purely from
> ambiguity of grammar or is context contributing to the translator's
> differences?
Verse 12 repeats a phrase form verse 1 "EIS TO DIHNEKES" which is a bit
awkward to bring into English as you pointed out. My perspective is that
this prepositional phrase should modify PROSENEGKAS < PROSFERW (as in
verse 1) since verse 10 is in direct contrast to verse 1. Thus, your
first example of "...offered FOR ALL TIME" gives me the best possible
contrast and meaning of the phrase. If it modifies "sat down," though, it
is not grammatically wrong, but it just doesn't make the best use of the
repetition of words as does the first example.
But the more I think of it, it also seems to be a play on words. To do
something CONTINUALLY or FOREVER carries the idea of doing something over
and over (the point of verse 1). Verse 10 uses an aorist participle to
describe how Christ made one sacrifice and it was FOREVER or FOR ALL
TIME.
> Again, in Romans 3:25 the RSV says "... to be received BY faith." The
> Greek word here is DIA, which I have always presumed means "through" - by
> which other translations indeed render this word. Can someone tell me if
> there is a grammatic reason for "by" or is it again just "translator's
> liberty?"
BADG lists DIA with Gen in III as "means, instrument, agency--by means of,
through with" so it seems to be again a better/best choice of an English
equivalent--the ongoing "problem" of translation work. I think Ephesians
2:8 gives a good example of the dative/instrumental and genitive case used
side by side in relation to PISTIS.
David Rising
------------------------------
From: Martin <kerberos@server.indo.net.id>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 09:47:28 +0700
Subject: Cc: b-greek@virginia.edu
This is my second posting to clarify what I mean and what I need..
I'm a Pagemaker user and I want to make a publication which include some
Greek, Hebrew, and maybe for the future I will need Arabic or Syriac. Is
there any font for all the language above ? And for Arabic,Hebrew, and
Syriac how can I type from right to left using Pagemaker ?
Best regards
Martin
------------------------------
From: David Moore <dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 22:58:44 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: translation
On Mon, 26 Feb 1996, brent justin anduaga-arias wrote:
>
> The RSV in 1st John 5:13 states "I write THIS to you..." All of my
> other English translations have "I write THESE THINGS to you..." Is
> there a grammatical reason for the RSV's departure or is it just
> "translator's liberty?"
The RSV has taken a liberty with the text at this point. TAUTA
is definitely plural.
> Also, in Hebrews 10:12 some of my English translations say "...offered
> FOR ALL TIME..." while others say "...sat down FOREVER..." The Greek word
> (which is being translated variously as indicated) seems to have
> ambiguity as to what its object is. Does the confusion arise purely from
> ambiguity of grammar or is context contributing to the translator's
> differences?
It seems to depend on how the translator has read the words EIS TO
DIHNEKES in relation to the context. This phrase should be understood to
modify the one sacrifice for sin. For one thing, because the theme of
this whole section of Hebrews is that Christ's one sacrifice for sin is
once and for all, but also because the duration of His enthronement "on
the right hand of God" is qualified by what is said in v. 13, so, to also
have EIS TO DIHNEKES refer to the enthronement would be somewhat
redundant. In v. 14 we again find EIS TO DIHNEKES used in reference to
Christ's one sacrifice as to its eternal efficacy for all those who are to
be sanctified by it.
> Again, in Romans 3:25 the RSV says "... to be received BY faith." The
> Greek word here is DIA, which I have always presumed means "through" - by
> which other translations indeed render this word. Can someone tell me if
> there is a grammatic reason for "by" or is it again just "translator's
> liberty?"
The use of "by" appears to be a legitimate translation of DIA
here. Of course it is a translator's call on this, and I would think
that the RSV translators rendered "by faith" rather than "through faith"
because it seems more natural English and really does not harm the
meaning of the Greek.
Regards,
David L. Moore Southeastern Spanish District
Miami, Florida of the Assemblies of God
dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us Department of Education
http://members.aol.com/dvdmoore
------------------------------
From: rrilea <rrilea@cnw.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 22:07:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Summary: Summary: Something from Nothing (shortish)
Dear B-Greeks,
According to the TDNT, the important consideration throughout the Bible and
Rabbinnic thought is God's hegemony over its creation. Thus, KTIZW became
the "founding" will and authority making God Lord of Creation despite the
encroachment of Hellenic, scientific "gods".
Thanks to everyone for their contributions - on and off list - to this thread.
I am impressed that such a potentially explosive topic could be handled
with such grace. It's been extremely valuable to me and, I hope, has given
others some food for thought. A special thanks to Carl Conrad for his
interpretations, references, clear thinking, and diplomacy. I would have
little to add to Carl's summary.
Appreciatively,
Will
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #130
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