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b-greek-digest V1 #131
b-greek-digest Wednesday, 28 February 1996 Volume 01 : Number 131
In this issue:
Re: Greek-Hebrew Fonts
Re: help on graphe artios
Re: translation
WinGreek
Re: Biblical Greek Text
Re: Biblical Greek Text
Re: help on graphe artios
Re: WinGreek fonts
Biblical Greek Grammar
New List/Intro Greek Students; Perseus Greek display
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Pierbattista Pizzaballa <mspzz@pluto.mscc.huji.ac.il>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 09:06:01 +0300
Subject: Re: Greek-Hebrew Fonts
At 9:47 AM 27.02.1996, Martin wrote:
> This is my second posting to clarify what I mean and what I need..
>
> I'm a Pagemaker user and I want to make a publication which include some
> Greek, Hebrew, and maybe for the future I will need Arabic or Syriac. Is
> there any font for all the language above ?
For Mac or Dos/Windows?
If you are Mac user, the answer is yes:
There are hebrew, arabic and greek fonts.PageMaker support these fonts.
For greek fonts there is not problem at all. Put them in your system and use them.
For semitic fonts:
There are fonts for romanic system (english, french, etc.) and for hebrew/arabic system. Semitic fonts for romanic system don't write from right to left. It means that you must type the words in reverese mode (from the last letter of the word to the first). Any version of PageMaker support these fonts.
The semitic fonts for hebrew/arabic system write from right to left. You need hebrew/arabic system OR romanic system with particular hebrew/arabic extensions (like me!); every Mac center can give those extensions. The hebrew fonts have also the punctuation but not the biblical accents (if you need the accents you have no choice: use hebrew fonts [like "SuperHebrew"] for romanic system only).
NOT all the versions of PageMaker support these fonts. You need appropriate PageMaker for semitic systems (apparently there is no difference). I've found it in Israel, but I suppose it is available also in USA.
> And for Arabic,Hebrew, and
> Syriac how can I type from right to left using Pagemaker ?
PageMaker is a layout program. Usually you have not to type in it. You must import files from others program (like word processors). Importing documents (appropriate) PageMaker automatically saves all the configurations (semitic and not). But I suppose it is the same if you type in it.
As far as I know for Mac there are syriac fonts only for romanic system (I suggest to use "Tur Abdin").
Apologize for mispelling.
Shalom
Pierbattista
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 06:00:37 -0600
Subject: Re: help on graphe artios
To: brent justin anduaga-arias <barias@unm.edu>
From: @
Subject: Re: help on graphe artios
Cc:
Bcc:
X-Attachments:
You wrote:
> I have a list of questions pertaining to 2nd Timothy 3:15-17.
> First, v17 uses 'artios' and 'exartizo.' I have heard raging debates
> about whether the words mean: 'equipped' and 'furnished' respectively, or
> something stronger: 'complete' and 'fully furnished' respectively. Any
> thoughts out there on this?
ARTIOS originally meant "fitting neatly together" in a very concrete sense.
It could be used of the "cyclopean walls" of the understructure of Apollo's
temple at Delphi, where massive rocks fit into a neat smooth structure. It
was used by Pythagoreans of an "even" number (ARTIOS ARIQMOS) as opposed to
an "odd" (PERITTOS ARIQMOS) wherein an element is "over and above" the
matched elements. It was used by Solon to describe a mind that was
well-ordered (NOOS ARTIOS). Perhaps that is enough to give a sense of
ARTIOS in 2 Tim 3:17. You decide on an adjective that expresses that idea.
And as for EXARTIZW, it means, in this instance, "to make someone (or
something) ARTIOS."
> Regardless of which is correct, I also would like to know (since I am
> just beginning to learn Greek) if the three verses are truly conveying
> the thought that ALL doctrine necessary for faith and practice are found
> in scripture, or is this idea something that has been read into the text
> for Reformation polemics?
Well, there are plenty of polemics apart from the Reformation ones. Some
may even now surface if I express my opinion that the "scripture" here
spoken of, in its own context, very likely (I really can't conceive an
alternative) refers to the Old Testament, and perhaps not even to all of
the OT, but certainly to the Torah, or five books of Moses, perhaps the
Prophets as well, but rather questionably the "Writings." Although Paul's
letters may have some authority by the time 2 Tim is composed, it still is
not, nor would I think any of the NT literature is as yet canonized
"scripture."
> Now for some more specific questions: Does the 'teaching, refutation,
> and correction' address 'righteousness' as part of the 'training in
> righteousness' phrase or are they distinct? In other words, could the
> thought be legally reworded like this: 'teaching in righteousness,
> refutation for righteousness, correction for righteousnes, and training in
> righteousness' - without doing damage to Paul's intention?
As I read the Greek, the article THN preceding DIKAIOSUNHN means that it
attaches strictly and properly only to PAIDEIAN, which is a broad word for
"education." I'd say this is the summary phrase, perhaps inclusive of the
three items mentioned just preceding--but I think there might be reasonable
argument on this matter.
> What about verse 16's 'didaskalion?' It seems to me this word does in
> fact just mean 'teaching.' However I have noticed that it is common for
> some English translations to render it as 'doctrine' here as elsewhere.
> Any comments?
DIDASKALIA does in fact mean "teaching," but the Latin equivalent is
DOCTRINA, which Anglicizes as "doctrine." I'm not so sure about the NT
sense of DIDASKALIA, but the Classical sense usually does refer more to the
giving of instruction, whereas English "doctrine" often suggests an
established body of accepted and acceptable lore.
What you need to do is to get a big unabridged dictionary and start
exploring these words in terms of the wide ranges in which they brance out
from one, two, or three simple concrete senses. Quite frankly, though, you
can't really start resolving questions such as the ones you raise until you
get some real instruction in Greek and start reading big chunks of text for
yourself. I can give you answers like this, or so can anyone else, but you
don't know whether they're right unless you have gone through the course of
Greek study for yourself.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 10:25:04 -0600
Subject: Re: translation
My apologies if this has actually gone through before, but my impression is
that it hasn't. But in some respects my views on the questions raised in
the original post differ from othrs, so I throw in my 2c worth.
brent justin anduaga-arias wrote:
> The RSV in 1st John 5:13 states "I write THIS to you..." All of my
> other English translations have "I write THESE THINGS to you..." Is
> there a grammatical reason for the RSV's departure or is it just
> "translator's liberty?"
Are you looking at a Greek text at all in relation to this question? The
Greek word translated 'THIS' in RSV and 'THESE THINGS' in the "other"
versions is TAUTA. Literally this is "these things"--and your "other"
translators have rendered it in a slavishly literal fashion. The RSV on the
other hand, has rendered it in what is more normal English idiom to refer
to "the preceding"--English tends to use the singular for reference to what
has just been said or what is about to say, where Greek tends to use a
neuter plural.
> Also, in Hebrews 10:12 some of my English translations say "...offered
> FOR ALL TIME..." while others say "...sat down FOREVER..." The Greek word
> (which is being translated variously as indicated) seems to have
> ambiguity as to what its object is. Does the confusion arise purely from
> ambiguity of grammar or is context contributing to the translator's
> differences?
Yes. That is: the phrase in the Greek, EIS TO DIHNEKES falls neatly in the
middle between the two predicate clauses; some translators have preferred
to understand it with "offered," others with "sat down." If you think about
it a little, however, it's clear that this phrase means BOTH that the
action was performed once for all time AND that its performer then took his
throne once for all time. That would seem to be why it is centrally placed.
Imagine it thus (painfully literal, but rhetorically perhaps not
ineffective): "And he, upon offering a single offering for our sins--for
all time--took his seat at the right hand of God ..."
> Again, in Romans 3:25 the RSV says "... to be received BY faith." The
> Greek word here is DIA, which I have always presumed means "through" - by
> which other translations indeed render this word. Can someone tell me if
> there is a grammatic reason for "by" or is it again just "translator's
> liberty?"
Would you perhaps prefer "through the instrumentality of"--in order to
capture the precise nuance of DIA + genitive in this instance, or would you
settle for "by"--which means the same thing and is considerably more
economical?
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: John T Lewis <jlewis@brightok.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 10:31:44 -0600
Subject: WinGreek
Someone mentioned a shareware package called WinGreek. I have not been able
to locate this. Does anyone know where this can be found? Thanks
John T. Lewis
P.O. Box 65
Lone Grove, OK 73443
(405) 657-4455
jlewis@brightok.net
------------------------------
From: David Moore <dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 13:17:13 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Biblical Greek Text
On Mon, 26 Feb 1996, Stanley W. Bray wrote:
>
>
> I am part of a Biblical Hebrew Study Group. We just completed Biblical
> Hebrew by Kittel et al and are moving on to an intermediate level text.
> My question is, can you make a recommendation on a Biblical Greek text
> that takes a similar approach or would make a good beginning Greek
> textbook?
>
There have been threads on this from time to time on b-greek.
You might find them at one of the archives of b-greek on the World Wide
Web. There are links to them at my web site for which the URL is
included below. Look under "Linguistic and Biblical Language Resources."
David L. Moore Southeastern Spanish District
Miami, Florida of the Assemblies of God
dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us Department of Education
http://members.aol.com/dvdmoore
------------------------------
From: Steve Walton <steve.walton@nottingham.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 19:50:04 +0000
Subject: Re: Biblical Greek Text
Stanley,
You might try Ian Macnair, _Discovering New Testament Greek_ (Marshall
Pickering, 1994 - there is a US publisher too, but I don't know which). We
use it as a textbook here to teach our first year Greek, often to students
with little knowledge of English grammar, and find it friendly and
accessible, but teaching people Greek grammar so that they can use critical
commentaries.
At 18:21 26/2/96, Stanley W. Bray wrote:
>I am part of a Biblical Hebrew Study Group. We just completed Biblical
>Hebrew by Kittel et al and are moving on to an intermediate level text.
>My question is, can you make a recommendation on a Biblical Greek text
>that takes a similar approach or would make a good beginning Greek
>textbook?
>
Regards,
Steve Walton
From: Steve Walton, Lecturer in New Testament, St John's College,
Chilwell Lane, Bramcote, Nottingham, NG9 3DS, England
e-mail: steve.walton@nottingham.ac.uk
tel: 0115 925 1114 (college) 0115 922 9499 (home)
fax: 0115 943 6438 (college)
------------------------------
From: David Moore <dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 16:41:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: help on graphe artios
"Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu> wrote:
>brent justin anduaga-arias <barias@unm.edu> wrote:
>
>> Regardless of which is correct, I also would like to know (since I am
>> just beginning to learn Greek) if the three verses are truly conveying
>> the thought that ALL doctrine necessary for faith and practice are found
>> in scripture, or is this idea something that has been read into the text
>> for Reformation polemics?
>
>Well, there are plenty of polemics apart from the Reformation ones. Some
>may even now surface if I express my opinion that the "scripture" here
>spoken of, in its own context, very likely (I really can't conceive an
>alternative) refers to the Old Testament, and perhaps not even to all of
>the OT, but certainly to the Torah, or five books of Moses, perhaps the
>Prophets as well, but rather questionably the "Writings." Although Paul's
>letters may have some authority by the time 2 Tim is composed, it still is
>not, nor would I think any of the NT literature is as yet canonized
>"scripture."
Although, IMO, PASA GRAFH refers to all of OT Scripture because
that is what is implied by PASA without other modifiers (Cf. also v. 15,
hIERA GRAMMATA.), the real _crux interpretum_ (I hope I got the Latin
right.) for this passage is *where* the verb ESTIN is to be supplied for
v. 16: with QEOPNEUSTOS (wich is how the writer takes it) or with
WFELIMOS. The first construction expresses that all Scripture is inspired
by God, the second, that all (or every) God-inspired Scripture is
useful... Some have objected to the latter because it may be taken to
mean that not all the Scripture is inspired. Reference to a good
commentary on the Pastoral Epistles should give the arguments proposed for
each view. An interesting note: Calvin's commentary on this passage makes
no mention of the possibility of supplying the verb with WFELIMOS. Might
this indicate that the interpretation of this verse was not in question at
the time of the Reformation? Cf. also _Institutes_ I:ix:1.
In answer to Brent's question, although Carl Conrad has hinted at
an answer already, it appears that what is being expressed here is that
the Scriptures, which Timothy knows from his childhood form an adequate
basis for sound faith and practice; it doesn't really express exclusion of
other sources. IMO, one would have to take into consideration the epoch
for which Timothy was being prepared to serve. Reliance on the OT alone
would hobble ministers of our generation. So, in terms of application to
our own spiritual lives, this passage should be understood in spirit
rather than it its literal interpretation to Timothy, pointing us to the
Scriptures (as we understand that term) as a faithful guide for faith and
practice.
David L. Moore Southeastern Spanish District
Miami, Florida of the Assemblies of God
dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us Department of Education
http://members.aol.com/dvdmoore
------------------------------
From: David Moore <dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 18:12:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: WinGreek fonts
Those who might be interested in WinGreek may find it at the
following URL:
http://mars.acs.oakland.edu/oak/SimTel/win3/font.html
WinGreek is the last listing in the directory.
David L. Moore Southeastern Spanish District
Miami, Florida of the Assemblies of God
dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us Department of Education
http://members.aol.com/dvdmoore
------------------------------
From: Cierpke@aol.com
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 18:42:46 -0500
Subject: Biblical Greek Grammar
I really think that nothing can quite compare with William Mounce's Basics of
Biblical Greek as the finest beginning grammar on the market presently. It
comes with a workbook and is keyed to his Morphology of Biblical Greek.
Kevin W. Woodruff
Reference Librarian
Cierpke Memorial Library
Temple Baptist Seminary
Tennessee Temple University
1815 Union Ave.
Chattanooga, TN 37404
423/493-4252
Cierpke@aol.com
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 19:02:31 -0600
Subject: New List/Intro Greek Students; Perseus Greek display
Although this appears to be aimed at beginning students of classical Attic
Greek, it strikes me as something that might be of interested to list users
of b-greek who are beginning the Koine as well, and perhaps for those who
teach it, this might also be worth knowing about.
Incidentally, the hum from Greg Crane today has been the discovery that the
SMK Greek fonts do not display Greek properly on Netscape 2.0. A fix is in
the works, however, which will probably involve suggesting that Netscape
2.0 users set their fonts to "user defined"--this only for those using N
2.0; the original scheme was set up for Netscape 1.1.
>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:27:55 -0500
>Reply-To: Perseus Discussion List <PERSEUS%BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu>
>Sender: Perseus Discussion List <PERSEUS%BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu>
>From: Greg Crane <gcrane%PERSEUS.TUFTS.EDU@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu>
>Subject: New List for Intro Greek Students...
>To: Multiple recipients of list PERSEUS <PERSEUS@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
>Status:
>
>Following up on discussion about promoting the study of Greek, we have set up,
>as one small step forward, a list for students of introductory Greek. The
>goal is to give them a medium in which they can exchange ideas, ask and answer
>questions, and also just see that there are other people out there. It may
>be necessary to set up separate lists for people using different books,
>but we might as well see whether that is necessary and whether this list
>gets cluttered (or even heavily used).
>
>To join:
>
>mail to majordomo@perseus.tufts.edu
>
>and send a one line message:
>
>subscribe intro_greek
>
>
>Greg
>Gregory Crane
>Tufts University
>
>p.s., you can also join this list now by calling up the URL:
>http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/mail.html
>and filling out a form.
>
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #131
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