From: Larry Swain (lswain@wln.com)
Date: Sun Dec 03 1995 - 02:24:28 EST
On Sat, 2 Dec 1995 BibAnsMan@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 95-12-02 18:25:52 EST, Larry Swain:
> regarding 1 Timothy 2:11ff.
>
> >The best conclusion seems to me based on these and other important
> >factors that this speaks of familial relationships and should not be
> >confused with leadership roles in the church.
>
> Actually, in the very next chapter Paul wrote the reason of his writing, "but
> in case I am delayed, [I write] so that you may know how one ought to conduct
> himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the
> pillar and support of the truth."
You miss the point. First, the question is what is the IMMEDIATE context
of I Tim 2, not the general. The whole of the Bible is an instruction of
how to be the people of God, but there are specific situations which deal
with different types of relationships within, sometimes even in the same
epistle. (Wow! What a concept!) So the specific context of I Tim 2 is
about prayer, and unless you would argue that prayer and proper adornment
only occurs within the context of the gathered body of believers and not
at home (and these were basically churches which met in homes and
consisted of familial units as often as not-cf Meeks among others), then
I would suggest to you that the context of this passage has to deal with
familial relations as an immediate referent, otherwise Paul's use of
Genesis 2&3 makes very little sense.
Second, I was not introducing a dichotomy of Family vs Church context,
but rather which relationship within the church is being addressed. I
suppose this would mean that we offer prayer for kings and such only on
Sunday mornings? Or perhaps we should only pray then? And ANHR and GUNH
which are used to describe the most basic and universal human
relationship really don't do that here. I suppose you could maintain
this, but I prefer evidence.
Third, there is nothing in the verses themselves that alerts us to say
"Hey, women shouldn't teach Sunday school! Hey, we have a female choir
leader, that isn't Scriptural!! Rather, Paul is saying that along with
the qualities listed in verse10, there should also be submissiveness and
HSUXIA-the same quality that husbands are to display-see vs 2.
So In short, BibAnsMan, you missed my point entirly.
> Also, note the content of chapter 3. This is the immediate context. Paul's
> epistles to Timothy do deal with the church.
See above.
>
> I missed the evidence for the following statement you made:
>
> >True. So why do you object to the fact that the early Fathers understood
> >Junia as a female apostle?
>
> Where do the early church Fathers say this???
Well, I refer you the discussion on Junia which has taken place on this
list more than once, including the last day or so in which more than one
person pointed out the available evidence. I can repost this if
necessary, but I won't bore the list with it again.
In short sir, on lexicographical, historical, theological, sociological
grounds I would say you need at the very least to reconsider your position.
Larry Swain
Parmly Billings Library
lswain@wln.com
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Sat Apr 20 2002 - 15:37:33 EDT