From: dixonps@juno.com
Date: Tue Dec 21 1999 - 17:36:20 EST
On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 19:36:43 -0600 "Joe A. Friberg"
<JoeFriberg@email.msn.com> writes:
> Interpretations of 8.35:
>
> Paul Dixon (PD):
> > > << whoever desires to save his life (eternally) shall lose it
(temporally)
> > > and whoever loses his life temporally on account of me and the
> > > gospel, shall find it eternally. >>
>
> Steven Craig Miller (SCM):
> > > Furthermore, I would suggest that it is not the most natural
> > > interpretation. Robert H. Gundry [1993] writes: "Saving your
present
> > > life results in losing your eternal life. Losing your present life
for
> > > the sake of Jesus and the gospel results in saving your eternal
life."
> > > And I think that Gundry hits on the most common interpretation.
>
> PD:
> > I did not know what Gundry had said, but it sure looks like we are
saying
> > the same thing. I am shocked my written words could be interpreted
> > otherwise.
>
> The difference lies in v35a, that PD and Gundry reverse the roles
> (and order) in which termporal and eternal life occur:
> PD: eternal-temporal
> Gundry: present-eternal
>
> Gundry is plausible, but not PD at this point: the apodosis
> represents a consequence to the desire stated in the protasis, not a
means to
> obtain the desire. Further, Gundry's statement makes the 2 parts of
v35
> complementary paradoxes, not parallel.
Yes, the more common interpretation of v. 35 is as you say, Joe. But,
let me
point out some serious problems with that view.
First, it ignores the parallel with the immediately preceding verse. The
GAR of
v. 35 seems to be introducing an explanation of v. 34. If so, then the
protasis-apodosis
of v. 35 runs parallel to and explains the protasis-apodosis of v. 34.
In v. 34 EI TIS QELEI OPISW MOU AKOLOUQEITW is paralleled and explained
by hOS GAR EAN QELHi THN YUCHN AUTOU SWSAI. How can a desire to follow
Christ be explained as a desire to save one's present life, that is a
desire to gain
and keep the things of this world (cf 37-38)? Much better is the notion
that a desire
to follow Christ is explained as a desire to save one's life.
Furthermore, how does losing eternal life (your interpretation of
APOLESEI
AUTHN, v. 35) explain APARNHSASQW hEAUTON KAI ARATW KAI ARATW
TON STAURON KAI AKOULOUQEITW MOI of v. 34? It does not. It makes
no sense. It makes sense, however, if denying one's self and taking up
one's cross (v. 34b) is explained as losing one's life (APOLESEI AUTHN).
Of course, an argument can be made for the more common interpretation
on the basis of the following explanatory GAR in v. 36. True, but
another
way to explain that explanation is not that it explains just the
preceding
first half of v. 35, but the whole preceding verse.
If the suggested interpretation above is accurate, then verses 36-37 flow
naturally and logically. To explain.
If a man desires to save his life eternally, then he will lose it
temporally.
Conversely, if he loses it temporally because of Christ and the gospel,
then he will find it eternally. Therefore, if and only if he loses his
life
temporally, i.e., by denying himself and taking up his cross and
following
Jesus, then he will save it eternally.
Thus, it follows that if a man does not lose his life temporally and even
gains the whole world, then he will lose eternal life, v. 36.
Joe, you argued that such a position would then view the losing of one's
temporal life as a means to the end, the end being salvation, the
apparent
conflict being a denial of a particular doctrine. I had answered
this expected rebuttal earlier, but was reminded that bringing up
theology
was not appropriate here. So, I won't do it again publicly. If you are
still
interested, contact me in private. Suffice it to say we remain in the
same
camp.
Thanks for this most stimulating discussion.
Paul Dixon
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