From: Stevens, Charles C (Charles.Stevens@unisys.com)
Date: Tue Dec 21 1999 - 18:04:42 EST
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<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=547091822-21121999>The
citation in 1JO 2:1 is not an "it" at all, but a *verb* -- the
subphrase "MH hAMARTHTE" being something along the lines of "in order that you
not sin". </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=547091822-21121999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=547091822-21121999>To
conclude that the *noun* "sin" in this passage is referring to something
occurring millennia before is incompatible with the fact that the word is in
fact a *verb* describing action on the part of the addressees, and to draw
theological or logical conclusions from that which the *noun* is describing in
that passage does not strike me as sound logic. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=547091822-21121999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=547091822-21121999>The
first ROM 5:12 citation is also a specific *action* that has inherited
consequences (and is a noun -- hAMARTIA) according to context; the second is a
verb phrase, approximately "inasmuch as all sinned", not "inasmuch as all
inherited that sin". </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=547091822-21121999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=547091822-21121999>Your
assertion that ROM 5:12 is a description of the inheritance of Adam's sin
*itself*, as distinct from inheritance of the *consequences* of that sin --
including both death and the *tendency* to commit sin --does not strike me as a
conclusion that may be presumed irrefutably and concretely solely from this
Greek text. It is a particular theological perspective that many, but
certainly not all, on this list hold, but this passage cannot be demonstrated
either to prove or presume that perspective. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=547091822-21121999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=547091822-21121999>The
citation in 1JO 1:8 is also a noun; I see nothing in either of these
passages to conclude that the author is referring to *original* sin as distinct
from the individual actions of the addressees. Paraphrasing these two
passages "I write to try to help keep you from going off track" is not
incompatible with "every one of us goes off track" in my view,
theologically or logically.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=547091822-21121999>It
looks a bit to me like you're operating under the assumption that hAMARTIA and
its variants (verbal as well as nominal, arthrous as well as anarthrous) carry
the partial connotation "original" along with the basic "sin". I
would argue that isn't supportable in any sort of general way.
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=547091822-21121999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=547091822-21121999>Furthermore, it's long been my impression that "sin" in
English has the basic connotation "actions redolent of fundamental moral
corruption and evil", whereas hAMARTANW (the verb form) stems etymologically
from "miss the target" in military terminology and doesn't, in my opinion, carry
nearly as much "corruption" connotation as the English. I believe the same
is true of the Hebrew root cheyth, teyth, aleph that is translated using these
Greek terms very frequently in the Septuagint. </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=547091822-21121999></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=547091822-21121999> -Chuck
Stevens</SPAN></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Grant
[mailto:grant@cajun.net]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 21, 1999 1:50
PM<BR><B>To:</B> Biblical Greek<BR><B>Subject:</B> 1 John
2:1<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>1 John 2:1 "My little children I am writing you these things
that you may not <SPAN class=547091822-21121999><FONT color=#0000ff
face=Arial> ` </FONT></SPAN>commit a sin..."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>TEKNIA MOU TAUTA GRAFW hYMIN hINA MH
<U><STRONG>hAMARTHTE</STRONG></U></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Is <STRONG>hAMARTHTE </STRONG>a specific sin or sin in
general? Is he here referring to the inherited sin that Romans 5:12
mentions or rather a sin that would involve a wrongdoing different from regular
imperfection?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I just found it quite strange that he "writes so that they do
not commit a sin" when </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>1 John 1:8 tells us that to make the statement: "We have no
sin" then constitutes us as a liar. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I seriously doubt John was contradicting himself a few
verse later. He most likely had something else in mind. Does the
Greek reveal anything I am missing?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Sincerely,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Grant Polle</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Louisiana, USA</FONT></DIV>
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