From: Bill Ross (wross@farmerstel.com)
Date: Fri Dec 24 1999 - 14:37:26 EST
<Steven>
That seems to me to be a grammatical fallacy. But rather than merely stating
that I disagree with your assertion. Let me ask, where did you pick up this
notion? I would be curious to learn, what grammarians or biblical scholars
hold this position which you have just presented?
<Bill>
Jesus' usage is without precedent. To my knowledge, there is not a single
other occurrence of this type of juxtaposition:
PRIN...EIMI
I am not aware of this construct being used in English, either, so it is, to
my knowledge, without precedent as well. The most widely recognized
authorities that I would appeal to are:
* the translators of the most widely used English translations do not
tranlate EGW EIMI as "I was already" or "I am he" but rather...
NIV
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
RSV
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
KJV
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I
am.
DBY
Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I
am.
YLT
Jesus said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham's
coming -- I am;'
But in a sense, there is no authority on the subject other than the Bible's
text itself.
To this I have appealed by showing that, other things being equal, the way
that John's gospel says "I already was" is *not* with the present tense but
with the imperfect:
John 1 1 EN ARCH HN O LOGOS KAI O LOGOS HN PROS TON QEON KAI QEOS HN O LOGOS
John 1 2 OUTOS HN EN ARCH PROS TON QEON
John 1 30 OUTOS ESTIN UPER OU EGW EIPON OPISW MOU ERCETAI ANHR OS EMPROSQEN
MOU GEGONEN OTI PRWTOS MOU HN
The *evidence* I appeal to:
* historical/grammarian support: (Bible translators)
* grammar: (after all, it *is* the present tense, is it not?! The *only*
aspect that is both already begun, presently going, and expected to
continue...)
* immediate context: (PRIN..EIMI)/the reaction of the Jews
* book and author level context: John's usage of the imperfect in the same
book for "already was"
* unsatisfying alternative explanations: implied predicate nominative??
* John's stage-setting prologue, epilogue and the whole of his text!: "In
the beginning was the Word" "that you might believe" "1:30 This is he of
whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was
before me."
* the identical impact of the words and rejoicing in my spirit when I read
them in English or Koine: John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto
him, My Lord and my God."
* the wider context of Scripture that identifies such timelessness with both
the Father and the Son
* a little Birdy told me :->
In other words, this is not wishful thinking, but the *only* explanation
that fits the grammar, the context, the "meaning of the words" and it just
happens to be the most common translation since English Bibles.
I rest my case.
Bill Ross
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government
shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful,
Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon
the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it
with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of
the LORD of hosts will perform this.
- Merry Christmas from Isaiah
--- B-Greek home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/bgreek You are currently subscribed to b-greek as: [cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu] To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-b-greek-329W@franklin.oit.unc.edu To subscribe, send a message to subscribe-b-greek@franklin.oit.unc.edu
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Sat Apr 20 2002 - 15:40:51 EDT