From: Moon-Ryul Jung (moon@saint.soongsil.ac.kr)
Date: Tue Jan 23 2001 - 09:16:40 EST
[Moon]
> >So, the crude taxomony of positions (to be used pedagogically at least) I
> >would like to suggest is:
> >
> >Predicative Position - the position of adjectives, nouns, and adverbials
> >used as predicates in sentences.
> >Restrictive Position - the position of adjectives, nouns, and adverbials
> >used as modifiers in noun phrase.
> >- Attributive Position - the position of descriptive adjectives, nouns,
> >and
> >adverbials, i.e. within the article-noun
> >configuration.
> >- Quantitative Positionn - the position of demonstratives and
> >quantifiers,
> >i.e. outside of the article-noun configuration.
>
[Carl]
> Am I to take it that these last two, "Attributive Position" and
> "Quantitative Position" are SUBCATEGORIES of "Restrictive Position"? Where
> do demonstratives like hOUTOS, hODE, and EKEINOS go? What really disturbs
> me about this is the same thing that disturbs me about Wallace's grammar:
> the multiplication of categories for the sake of making distinctions that
> are perhaps semantically valuable because of information they convey about
> translating the word into a target language even if they describe the same
> actual construction or, in this case, word-order phenomenon.
[Moon]
Carl, I understand your concern.
My concern is only that applying the notion of predicate position
to noun phrases is misleading, because in the case of noun phrases,
the so called predicate position has nothing to do with predication.
I have stated my case more fully in my response to Carlton.
Let me quote your statements, which you retracted, to illustrate how the
traditional terminology has confused me.
You said:
-------------
I've sometimes wondered (but this is purely speculative on my part)
whether,
when we say (e.g.) EKEINOS hO ANHR HSPASATO ME,
are we then offering TWO predications about hO ANHR:
(1) he greeted/welcomed me (HSPASATO ME),
and (2) he is somewhat distant from me. Can the linguists enlighten us?
-----------------------------------------
If we have only EKEINOS hO ANHR, then EKEINOS can be a predicate to
hO ANHR. EKEINOS is indeed in the predicate position. I was always
puzzled why EKEINOS in the noun phrase EKEINOS hO ANHR is still called
to be in the predicate position. It is because EKEINOS is not a predicate
to hO ANHR in the noun phrase EKEINOS hO ANHR. I thought that your
statement
above gave some explanation: TWO predications about the hO ANHR!
I reasoned as follows:
EKEINOS is a sort of predicate to hO ANHR,
even though its force is weaker than that of the main predicate
HSPASATO ME. So, EKEINOS can be called to be in the predicate
position even though it occurs in a noun phrase.
But my excitement did not last long. You regretted having made
the above statement. But I still think that the above explantion
is really a good pedagogical device, if we want to use the
notion of predicate position both for sentences and noun phrases.
sition goes back to Greek grammarians. I
would like to respect their wisdom. Perhaps for Greek speakers,
In the revision post, you seemed to say that
the "predicate position" has nothing to do with predication,
but refers simply to the position OUTSIDE
of the article-noun configuration. To apply the notion of predicate
position both to sentences and noun phrases, it should have nothing
to do with predication. But then we lose the main use of the notion of
predicate position, that is, to identify the predicate of a given
sentence.
So, I would like to use "predicate position" only when it has to do
with predication. The "attributive position" is good enough.
Then we need a term to refer to the "predicate position" in
a noun phrase, which has nothing to do with predication.
It is just a brainstorming. What about the following taxomoy?
1. predicate position - the traditional "predicate position" that has to
do
with predication
2. restrictive position
21. attributive position
22. non-attributive position -
the traditional "predicate position" that has
nothing to with predication.
The terminology may not be a good one. But I think I raised
a valid question.
Moon
Moon-Ryul Jung
Associate Professor
Sogang Univ, Seoul, Korea
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