From: Bryan Rocine (brocine@earthlink.net)
Date: Sat Feb 24 2001 - 20:00:35 EST
Hi Iver, you wrote (double arrows are me; single arrows are
your responses):
> > Given the common pattern PISTIS/PISTEUW + EIS,EN, EPI
(e.g.
> > John 14:1 EIS EME PISTEUETE), shouldn't we consider a
> > hypothetical EXETE PISTIN EIS QEON as probably distinct
from
> > EXETE
> > PISTIN QEOU ? Yet, many English translations, including
> > most modern translations would express no distinction,
QEOU
> > being labeled an objective genitive. It seems to me we
> > ought to think of them (PISTIN EIS QEON/PISTIN QEOU) as
> > *likely* distinct until presented with conclusive
evidence
> > that they are synonymous expressions.
>
> As a mathematician by training I am used to testing
hypotheses. Bryan states a
> hypothesis which I wanted to test. He said that
PISTIS/PISTEUW + EIS, EN, EPI is
> a common pattern.
>
> First, we need to keep the variables down and look at one
thing at a time. So,
> let's look at the verb form plus a prepositional phrase
(PP) separately from the
> noun form plus a PP. Since we are looking at the noun form
in the current
> discussion, I'll only looked at noun forms.
>
> So, I did a search in the GNT for all forms of the noun
PISTIS following by any
> preposition, not just EIS, EN and EPI. (I can't easily
search beyond the GNT in
> this way).
Looking at only nouns is fine, if you like, but I was
hoping that my example from John 14 (with a verb) would
indicate that I would not limit cases for examination to any
particular word order, whether using noun or verb, as you
did. The preposition may precede PISTIS or a word such as a
pronoun may come
between PISTIS and the preposition. Apparently your search
missed such cases.
You quote the NRSV, so I'll stick with it. The NRSV speaks
of having "faith in x" in the following cases:
Mark 11:22 Acts 3 16, 24:24, 27:25, Rom 3:26, Gal 2:16,
2:20, 3:22, Eph 1:15, 3:12, Phi 3:9, Col 1:4, 2:5, 2:12, 1Th
1:8, 2Ti 3:15
Acts 27:25 uses PISTEUW, so we'll dump it.
Of the remaining cases, the following seven cases have
PISTIS and the genitive without a preposition: Mar 11:22,
Acts 3:16, Gal 2:16, 3:22, Eph 3:12, Phi 3:9, Col 2:12,
The following eight cases have PISTIS with a preposition(al
phrase), although not necesarily in that order: Acts 24:24,
Rom 3:26, Gal 2:20, Eph 1:15, Col 1:4, 2:5, 1Th 1:8, 2Ti
3:15
Note that a couple of your examples of PISTIS + pp do not
show up here. Their absence is due to my generating the
list using the NRSV rather than the Gk.
You mention 5 examples of PISTIS + pp, a couple of which are
in my list and a couple of which are not, that you say are
probably not bona fide examples of a "faith in x" notion.
For instance, you say Eph 1:5 is uncertain. I don't
understand your justification for doing so. They look like
"faith in x's" to me.
In short, I still maintain that PISTIN + pp is common for
the "faith in x" notion.
Blessings,
Bryan
>
> The following results were obtained:
>
> I found 30 occurrences of PISTIS followed by a
preposition. 25 times the noun
> PISTIS occurred without an object. The following PP was
not the object of
> PISTIS. Two of these 25 were in the gospels:
>
> Mat 8:10 PAR' OUDENI TOSAUTHN PISTIN EN TWi ISRAHL hEURON
> such faith I did not find in anyone in Israel
> Lk 18:8 ARA hEURHSEI THN PISTIN EPI THS GHS
> Will he then find faith on the earth
>
> There were a good number of occurrences of PISTIN followed
by EIS or EN.
>
> There were only five instances with EIS, EPI or EN where
the PP could possibly
> be understood as the object for PISTIN, and these few
cases are questionable.
>
> I found only ONE instance in the whole GNT where an EIS
phrase could possibly be
> the object for PISTIS. And here PISTIN is joined with
another noun, which makes
> it rather special:
>
> Acts 20:21 THN EIS TON QEON METANOIAN KAI PISTIN EIS TON
KURION hHMWN IHSOUN
> the repentance towards God and faith towards our Lord,
Jesus.
>
> One could explain this by saying that the PP is not really
the object, but
> PISTIS is still used absolutely and then a prepositional
phrase is added to show
> direction, just as repentance is directed towards God. One
is not "repenting of
> God" but repenting and turning towards God.
>
> There was again only one instance of an EPI phrase
following PISTIN which was a
> possible candidate for an object:
>
> Heb 6:1 MH PALIN QEMELION KATABALLOMENAI APO NEKRWN ERGWN
KAI PISTEWS EPI QEOU
> not again laying a foundation of repentance away from
dead works and faith
> towards/based on God
>
> There were one instance of EN following PISTIN as a
probable, but somewhat
> uncertain candidate:
>
> Eph 1:15 AKOUSAS THN KAQ' hUMAS PISTIN EN TWi KURIWi IHSOU
KAI THN AGAPHN THN
> EIS PANTAS TOUS hAGIOUS. the faith among you in
(by/through?) the Lord Jesus and
> the love towards all the saints
>
> Then there were two instances of unlikely, but maybe
possible candidates:
>
> Rom 3:25 hILASTHRION DIA [THS] PISTEWS EN TWi AUTOU
hAIMATI EIS ENDEIXIN
> a sacrifice of atonement by his blood effective through
faith (NRSV)
> (probably not: through faith in his blood)
>
> Gal 3:26 PANTES GAR hUIOI QEOU ESTE DIA THS PISTEWS EN
CRISTWi IHSOU
> for in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through
faith (NRSV)
> (probably not: through faith in Christ Jesus.)
>
> In this last instance the faith in Christ Jesus would make
good sense, but the
> other option is taken by NRSV because it is quite
exceptional for PISTIS + a
> prepositional phrase with EIS, EN or EPI to mean faith in
X. It looks as if it
> may be possible with EN, but not with EIS or EPI.
>
> The result is that PISTIS + EIS/EN/EPI X rarely, if at
all, means "faith in X",
> so the initial assumption could not be supported by the
data.
>
> However, it is still a good hypothesis that PISTIS
EIS/EN/EPI X has a different
> meaning from PISTIS of-X. In fact, the NRSV has taken the
position that only
> PISTIS of-X can be taken to mean "faith in X" (with the
exception of Eph 1:15
> where PISTIS EN is translated as faith in). The NRSV
position is certainly well
> supported by the data, if we look at it objectively
(excuse the pun).
>
> Iver Larsen
>
B. M. Rocine
Associate Pastor
Living Word Church
6101 Court St. Rd.
Syracuse, NY 13206
(office) 315-437-6744
(home) 315-479-8267
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