From: Dave Washburn (dwashbur@nyx.net)
Date: Sun Jun 03 2001 - 23:00:22 EDT
Just to clarify:
> Dave Washburn wrote:
>
> > Jeffrey wrote:
> > >
> > > I beg to differ! If one feels that the SHMERON is a chronological indicator, then it
> > > makes a good deal of difference whether the term modifies the first or the second
> > > clause. For if it is the second clause, and is intended as an indicator of when the
> > > "thief" (what a woeful translation!) AND Jesus would be in paradise, then we have a
> > > contradiction between Luke's statement here and his supposition that Jesus does not
> > > enter "paradise" until after the resurrection.
> >
> > I'm not sure where this supposition is found, but I'll bypass that for
> > now.
>
> The supposition is found in Luke's story of the ascension at the end of his Gospel.
I could use some development of this thought because I don't see it.
> > It seems to me that the question is, which form of the
> > statement is more likely to have come out of the mouth of Jesus?
> > We have profuse examples of his use of AMHN LEGW SOI/hUMIN
> > etc as an introductory formula, and to my knowledge there is not
> > another example of his modifying it with SHMERON. Thus,
> > intrinsic probability by comparison with other use of this formula in
> > the gospels would suggest that SHMERON belongs with the next
> > clause.
> >
>
> For what it's worth, I would argue that neither form would have come from the lips of Jesus
> since there is good reason to think that the saying is a Lukan creation. Matthew and Luke do
> not know of it, let alone the story of the "repentant thief". And it fits too well with the
> Lukan theme of forgiveness. On top of that, it is Lukan in vocabulary.
I disagree about the idea of Lukan creations, and neither of us is
going to change the other's mind, so this avenue is likely to be
unproductive.
> > > Moreover, one also has to show that the term might **not** be a chronological
> > > reference at all (i.e., something that denotes the day of the crucifixion), but a
> > > reference to the eschatological "today" (cf. Luke's other uses of this term in the
> > > Capernaum sermon and with the story of Zacchaeus, so that Jesus is actually saying, "I
> > > say to you, now that the great "today" is here, that (given your repentance, you will
> > > be (at no specified time) with me in paradise.
> >
> > Why would one have to show this if one is arguing that SHMERON
> > belongs with the next clause? AFAIK, the gospels are pretty much
> > silent on the location of Jesus between death and resurrection, and
> > the eschatological suggestion seems excessively complex and
> > unnecessary to me. But all that is exegetical and theological
> > rather than linguistic, so to get back to the question of SHMERON,
>
> > another avenue of investigation might involve statistics on the
> > position of temporal indicators in the words of Jesus in the gospels.
>
> You seem to be assuming that all of the material is authentic and is of equal value for
> determining the patterns of Jesus' speech. In any case, it seems more sound to look first at
> Lukan usage of terms like SHMERON.
I do so assume, I have never come across a satisfactory reason
not to. I agree about Luke's use of such terms, but I would also
continue to suggest that Luke's placement of temporal indicators
will yield some usable data as well.
Dave Washburn
http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur
"You just keep thinking, Butch. That's what you're good at."
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