From: Matt Eby (ebymatt@yahoo.com)
Date: Mon Sep 03 2001 - 00:50:31 EDT
--- "Steven R. Lo Vullo" <doulos@appleisp.net> wrote:
> on 9/2/01 5:36 PM, Matt Eby at ebymatt@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > 1. "the proving of your faith/faithfulness effects perseverance."
> > Here PISTEWS is objective genitive, modifying DOKIMION, and hUMWN
> is
> > possessive, modifying PISTEWS.
> >
> > 2. "your proving of [your] faith/faithfulness effects
> perseverance."
> > This is the same as #1, except that hUMWN is subjective genitive,
> > modifying DOKIMION, and the article preceding PISTEWS is
> possessive.
> >
> > 3. "the proving of 'you of faith/faithfulness' effects
> perseverance."
> > Here hUMWN is objective genitive, modifying DOKIMION, and PISTEWS
> is
> > descriptive genitive, modifying hUMWN ("you [who are characterized
> by]
> > faith/faithfulness").
> >
> > 4. "the proving of 'you of the faith' effects perseverance." This
> is
> > the same as #3, except that PISTEWS is possessive genitive,
> modifying
> > hUMWN ("you [who belong to] the faith")--THS PISTEWS here referring
> to
> > the body of belief, i.e., the Christian faith.
> >
> > I could be wrong, but I think Jim West was advocating #3. His
> > suggestion comes *not* from viewing PISTIS (on its own in some sort
> of
> > vocative fashion) to mean "faithful people," but from viewing
> PISTEWS
> > in the genitive phrase "hUMWN THS PISTEWS" as modifying hUMWN ('you
> of
> > faith'). This is not far from the meaning of the genitive PISTEWS
> > modifying OIKEIOUS in Gal. 6:10 (which the NIV renders "the family
> of
> > believers"--although this would perhaps better vindicate option #4
> than
> > #3).
>
> If that is what he meant, I completely misunderstood him and we were
> just
> talking past each other. If that is the case, I apologize. But he
> began his
> post with the words "*your testing*" (emphasis his) which seems to
> take
> hUMWN as a modifier of DOKIMION. Then he offered the translation
> "knowing
> this- that the tests you endure, you faithful ones, result in
> steadfastness." Taking into account how he had begun his post (*your
> testing*), it seemed to me that the first "you" in his translation
> again
> took hUMWN as a modifier of DOKIMION, and the second "you" was used
> to bring
> out some absolute sense of THS PISTEWS. I don't know what else I
> could have
> thought under the circumstances.
<snip>
> If he was expressing #3 above, then yes, he was offering a valid
> grammatical
> option. However, if that is the case, I don't know how I could have
> discerned it by what he actually wrote.
> --
>
> Steve Lo Vullo
> Madison, WI
Steven,
Like I said, I could be wrong; sometimes it's easier to exegete the
text than it is each other ;). My post was the only way I could
reconcile Jim's stance with the text. Perhaps Jim will speak for
himself...
Matt Eby
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