ChrisBabcock
<chrisbabcock@erols.com>
>On Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:25:25 -0500 (EST) RHutchin@aol.com writes:
>>In a message dated 11/13/97 3:38:14 AM, dixonps@juno.com wrote:
>
>RH says:
>>That just seems illogical to me. I would not be alarmed to think that
>>the Lord's return was at hand. I cannot see Paul Dixon being alarmed.
>>The Day of the Lord conveys many ideas-- The control of God over all
>events,
>>Judgment Day, the rapture, among others. I cannot see the "tribulation"
>
>>gaining dominance over all these other concepts in the minds of the
>>Thessalonians and creating a climate of fear any more than I could see a
>Paul >Dixon or others on this list being similarly focused.
>>
>>It would make better sense to me if, in these verse, Paul were
>>referring back to the tribulations to which the Thessalonians were being
>>subjected and to which he refers at the beginning of both letters, and
>then telling
>>them not to be disheartened because they must endure these tribulations.
>
>>Ultimately, Christ is coming, he says, and the tribulations are normal.
>In fact,
>>he says, beginning in v 3, even worse things must happen before Christ
>>returns. I cannot see the Thessalonian's problem as being a fear of
>current or
>>approaching tribulation. I can see them being troubled that their
>>current tribulations might raise doubts about, and rejection of, all
>that Paul
>>has taught them. Perhaps that was happening to some of them. I think
>>this is also the point in Matthew 24:6.
>
>PD responds: if the Thessalonians had been taught the contents of Mt
>24:15-31 (most likely received under Paul's previous instruction, v. 5),
>and if they thought those days were upon them, then there was cause for
>great alarm. Consider the cause for concern given by Christ, "let those
>... flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down
>to take anything out of his house ... woe to those who are pregnant ...
>pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then
>there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning
>of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be .." (Mt 25:17-22).
>
>This fits in exactly with Paul's argumentation, for he corrects their
>misperception on the basis that these things could not be taking place
>since the man of lawlessness had not been revealed. This, of course, is
>just what Christ said in Mt 24:15, "when (not before) you see the
>abomination of desolation ... then" be concerned. This was meant to be a
>tell-tale sign triggering the endtimes and the onslaught of great
>tribulation.
>
>>>PD also said:
>>>But, the alarm may be more than just the concern over the sufferings.
>It
>>>may be that some of these reports they were getting were to the effect
>>>that Christ was already here (if we take ENESTHKEN as "has come").
>>
>>RH
>>That's fine. However, I do not see how that would translate into the
>>Thessalonians being troubled.
>
>This is an easy one. If ENESTHKEN = "has come," then the Lord has
>returned, the church has been raptured, and they missed it. Indeed,
>cause for alarm!
>>
>>>PD said:
>>>The parallel between Mt 24:15 ff and 2 Thess 2:1ff is too obvious to
>>>ignore. In both passages the tell-tale sign preceding the coming of
>the
>>>day of the Lord is the abomination of desolation (Mt 24:15), that is,
>the
>>>revelation of the man of lawlessness (2 Thess 2:4).
>>>
>>>No, I don't see the problem you're having. If we take hWS hOTI
>ENESTHKEN
>>>hH hHMERA TOU KURIOU with the preceding, it makes excellent sense. It
>>>explains the content of what they had been lead to erroneously believe.
>
>>>Verse 3, then, is an expectant exhortation from Paul not to be deceived
>>>by such and why.
>>
>>RH says:
>>Obviously, we do not agree on what makes excellent sense. Even if hWS
>>hOTI ENESTHKEN hH hHMERA TOU KURIOU does explain the content of what
>>the Thessalonians had been lead to erroneously believe, I cannot see
>this
>>being the source of alarm or a troubling as seems to be conveyed in
>these
>>verses.
>>
>>>PD lastly says:
>>>But, even if you do take it with verse 3, how does that solve your
>>>problem?
>>
>>RH responds:
>>First, it makes the Thessalonian's current tribulations the context
>>for their fears which makes sense to me. Second, v3 would in effect
>have Paul
>>saying, "Now, concerning this idea that you think the Day of the Lord
>is at
>>hand, let no man deceive you because that day cannot come unless such
>and >such happens." If the Greek allowed this, I would be happy. If it
>cannot,
>>then I do not understand how Paul could be referring to a fear of the
>>tribulation identified with the coming of the Lord.
>
>Again, check out Mt 24:15-23 for a description of just cause for alarm.
>
>>Regardless, if the Greek cannot permit a translation such as I have
>>suggested, then I will have to look at these verses as currently
>>translated whether I am able to understand them or not. Such is life.
>
>Paul Dixon
As a pretribulationalist, I don't have difficulty seeing how the Thessalonians could have been afraid of missing the rapture and finding themselves in the tribulation (since Paul only had two weeks to teach them personally). As a morderate dispensationalist, I don't have any difficulty reconciling this to the eschatology of the Olivet Discourse. I understand that in many respects this is 'oversimplification,' but such is sometimes necessary for effective communication. God did it for us.
Let's not forget the first rule of exegesis - When the plain sense of a passage makes sense, seek no other sense.
Chris Babcock
<chrisbabcock@erols.com>
student