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b-greek-digest V1 #635




b-greek-digest             Tuesday, 28 March 1995       Volume 01 : Number 635

In this issue:

        Re: "This generation ...": Mk 13:34 par.; Mk 9:1 par.
        Re: Aland's early text
        Re: Aland's early text
        Re: "This generation ...": Mk 13:34 par.; Mk 9:1 par.
        Re: Aland's early text
        Ministry in the New Testament 
        OT and NT ministry 
        Re: Ministry in the New Testament
        Re: OT and NT ministry

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Larry W. Hurtado" <hurtado@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 10:34:47 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: "This generation ...": Mk 13:34 par.; Mk 9:1 par.

Thank you "The Rev. David R. Graham" for your quaintly robust (and 
criticially unaware) presentation of your own Hindu-ized version of the 
Jesus story and of the Indian origins of all things good.  But, please, 
could we restrict this list more to things that scholars can seriously 
debate, and preferably to things a bit more obviously related to the 
Greek NT?  Just a thought.

Larry Hurtado, Religion, Univ. of Manitoba 

------------------------------

From: "Larry W. Hurtado" <hurtado@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 11:00:48 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Aland's early text

On Aland's analysis of the early history of the NT text, there are a few 
things to note.  
1.  There are changes from the lst (1987) to 2nd (1989) English editions of 
the Alands' _The Text of the NT_, largely in response to damaging 
criticisms in English-language reviews (by inter alia, E.J. Epp 
[Interpretation 44, 1990, 71-75], yours truly [CBQ 50, 1988, 313-15, and 
others).  In particular, gone from the 2nd ed. is "the early text", 
replaced by "the text of the early period".  The former term was 
confusing, as if "early text" represented any particular textual 
complexion or set of characteristics (like a "text-type").  Also, in the 
2nd ed., there is a less doctrinaire approach to early textua history.
2. After all is said and done, and after Aland announces a revolutionary 
approach to analysing the early history of the NT text, what he winds up 
with in the three varieties he finds in the earliest papyri--the "free" 
text, the "normal" text, and the "stict" text--look suspiciously very 
similar to Hort's three main text-types ("Western", "Syrian", and 
"Neutral").   One is left to wonder, thus, how substantially different 
Aland's analysis really is, other than to show that something like the 
fourth century text types seems to be exhibited in the early papyri.
3.  As another, and more thoughtful to my view, analysis, I point to E. 
J. Epp, "The Significance of the Papyri for Determining the Nature of the 
New Testament Text in the Second Century:  A Dynamic View of Textual 
Transmission," in E. J. Epp, G. D. Fee, _Studies in the Theory and Method 
of NT Textual Criticism_ (Eerdmans, 1993), pp. 274-97.

L. W. Hurtado, Religion, Univ. of Manitoba 

------------------------------

From: Vincent Broman <broman@np.nosc.mil>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 95 13:25:48 PST
Subject: Re: Aland's early text

hurtado@cc.umanitoba.ca comments on Aland:
>                          ...he finds in the earliest papyri--the "free" 
> text, the "normal" text, and the "st[r]ict" text--look suspiciously very 
> similar to Hort's three main text-types ("Western", "Syrian", and 
> "Neutral").

It was obvious that Aland equated "strict" texts with Hort's "Neutral",
and he viewed "free" textual transmission as the source of Hort's
"Western" text, while denying that it was a text type, but I didn't
see any hint that "normal" texts were somehow connected to Hort's "Syrian".
Did I miss something?  Or were you just responding to the tripartite division?
In any case Aland measured everything by its distance from p75/B,
around which the rest of the world revolves.


Vincent Broman,  code 572 Bayside                        Email: broman@nosc.mil
Naval Command Control and Ocean Surveillance Center, RDT&E Div.
San Diego, CA  92152-6147,  USA                          Phone: +1 619 553 1641

------------------------------

From: Vincent Broman <broman@np.nosc.mil>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 95 14:12:56 PST
Subject: Re: "This generation ...": Mk 13:34 par.; Mk 9:1 par.

baloglou@oswego.oswego.edu surmised:
> ...PANTA TAUTA (which I suspect
> to be vastly more common than TAUTA PANTA in all forms of Greek...

In the NT, PANTA TAUTA occurs in 4-7 verses, depending on text,
and TAUTA PANTA in about 14 verses, depending on text.
The order of this word pair frequently varies between MSS.
Did Greek usage change over the centuries with respect to this phrase?


Vincent Broman,  code 572 Bayside                        Email: broman@nosc.mil
Naval Command Control and Ocean Surveillance Center, RDT&E Div.
San Diego, CA  92152-6147,  USA                          Phone: +1 619 553 1641

------------------------------

From: "Larry W. Hurtado" <hurtado@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 16:29:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Aland's early text

On Mon, 27 Mar 1995, Vincent Broman wrote:

> It was obvious that Aland equated "strict" texts with Hort's "Neutral",
> and he viewed "free" textual transmission as the source of Hort's
> "Western" text, while denying that it was a text type, but I didn't
> see any hint that "normal" texts were somehow connected to Hort's "Syrian".
> Did I miss something?  Or were you just responding to the tripartite division?
> In any case Aland measured everything by its distance from p75/B,
> around which the rest of the world revolves.

Quite right, Aland didn't make any obvious similarities between his 
schema and Hort's.  I was simply observing that Aland's description of 
his "normal" text has some interesting similarities to Hort's 
characterization of some characteristics of his "Syrian" type (a certain 
scribal freedom to produce edifying, inoffensive readings, etc.).

Larry Hurtado, Religion, Univ. of Manitoba

------------------------------

From: TimNeum@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 22:33:11 -0500
Subject: Ministry in the New Testament 

Greetings to all.
I would like to seek discussion of Matt. 28:16-20 as "Words of Institution"
for an apostolic ministry rather than a Great Commission for lay
evangelization. I ask that any responses be exegetical, but not overly filled
with "linguobabble."

Regards,
Timothy L. Neumann

------------------------------

From: TimNeum@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 22:46:43 -0500
Subject: OT and NT ministry 

Greetings to all.
I am seeking discussion of possible points of contact that may exist between
the Aaronic priesthood and the apostolic ministry as described in the New
Testament. For example, can there be some kind of contact between Lev.
10:10-11 and Matt. 28:16-20? All pertinent comments would be appreciated.

Regards,
Timothy L. Neumann

------------------------------

From: Larry Swain <lswain@wln.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 22:05:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Ministry in the New Testament

Timothy, 
I have been doing some thinking on this of late myself.  I think that 
your observation to a degree hits the mark.  28.16 certainly specifies 
the 11 remaining "disciples" who had been designated as "My brethren" in 
Jesus' instructions to the women at the tomb in v.10.  It is also 
interesting that the first thing g that Jesus does in His ministry after 
the Temptation is call the disciples (4.18).  The last thing he does is 
tell his disciples to imitate him and make disciples.

There are of course Mosaic parallels here as well.  In Dt. 31.23  after 
his "speech" and before the "song" Moses commissions Joshua his disciple 
if you will to take the sons into the land.  Here we have Jesus 
completing what Moses didn't: from the land into the world.  And when 
Moses dies on the mtn. top he is buried where no one knows, Dt 34.  Now 
Jesus is where no one knows and his body is not found.  

Anyway, I think it obvious that the "great commission" is the  commission 
for apostolic ministry given to a group of men who had lived and heard 
Jesus for a minimum of 3 years, not a general instruction for everyone to 
be a missionary or a big lay evangelism program.  Of course to apply this 
dictum to 20th century American Christianity is difficult because we 
don't look much like the disciples and the early church.

- -Larry Swain
Parmly Billings Library
lswain@billings.lib.mt.us



On Mon, 27 Mar 1995 TimNeum@aol.com wrote:

> Greetings to all.
> I would like to seek discussion of Matt. 28:16-20 as "Words of Institution"
> for an apostolic ministry rather than a Great Commission for lay
> evangelization. I ask that any responses be exegetical, but not overly filled
> with "linguobabble."
> 
> Regards,
> Timothy L. Neumann
> 

------------------------------

From: Larry Swain <lswain@wln.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 22:14:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: OT and NT ministry

I think that the parallel you have noted needs first to be broadened.  
Dt. 33.10 also speaks of the Levites teaching the   TOrah to Israel.  The 
parallel is one of function however.  The Levites, and the priesthood are 
to the Old covenant as Jesus and the disciples are to the New.  That is, 
Jesus who is the prophet like Moses in Matthew reveals the covenant to 
the disciples who teach it to the church.  I don't think that Matthew 
would say that there is an identification of the disciples with 
Levites-that is that they take over the same position and activities.  I 
hope that makes sense to the readers as much as to the writer.

Regards, 
Larry Swain
Parmly Billings Library
lswain@wln.com


------------------------------

End of b-greek-digest V1 #635
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