[Prev][Next][Index][Thread]
b-greek-digest V1 #645
b-greek-digest Saturday, 1 April 1995 Volume 01 : Number 645
In this issue:
Date of Revelation
Re: "Soundness" in the Pastorals
Re: Date of Revelation
before you buy BAGD
DSS CD-ROM
Date of Revelation
Dictionaries
Lexicons
Pseudonymity and Apocalypsis/-ses
Revelation and the Canon History
Papias and dating of Revelation (was: John)
Re: Revelation/Apocalypse
Re: Date of Revelation
Re: genre of Revelation (sorry, a rather long note)
Re: before you buy BAGD
Re: DSS CD-ROM
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Greg Doudna <gdoudna@ednet1.osl.or.gov>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 23:23:59 -0800
Subject: Date of Revelation
Dennis of DDDJ@aol.com wrote:
> This depends on your dating of Revelation since I date it as
> 60 or so . . .
Would you elaborate your reasons for this dating? Thanks--
Greg Doudna
gdoudna@ednet1.osl.or.gov
- --
------------------------------
From: Georg Stubkjaer Adamsen <gsadamsn@login.dknet.dk>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 1995 09:54:36 -0100
Subject: Re: "Soundness" in the Pastorals
In article <950331032703_67053995@aol.com>, Timster132@aol.com wrote:
> TO: B-GREEK@VIRGINIA.EDU,
> CC: al69@cityscape.co.uk (Lloyd Pietersen)
> FROM: Timster132@aol.com (Tim Staker)
>
>
> Parallels of the usage of "soundness" referring to teaching is found in
> elsewhere outside the NT:
There is some representative examples of this tradition in the
Graeco-Roman Philosophy in: A. Malherbe: _Moral Exhortation. A
Graeco-Roman Sourcebook_ (Library of Early Christianity, 4).
Philadelphia, 1986 or later.
- --
Georg S. Adamsen, Denmark
------------------------------
From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 07:52:12 -0600 (GMT-0600)
Subject: Re: Date of Revelation
On Fri, 31 Mar 1995, Greg Doudna wrote:
>
> Dennis of DDDJ@aol.com wrote:
> > This depends on your dating of Revelation since I date it as
> > 60 or so . . .
>
> Would you elaborate your reasons for this dating? Thanks--
Frankly this struck me as curious too. I don't hold any particular brief
for the time of Domitian, but the book is distinctly anti-Roman (does
anyone doubt the identification of Babylon with Rome?), and it has its
internal references to Patmos off Ephesos. Despite the fact that it's
been suggested that we don't need to postulate persecution as a climate
for the writing of apocalyptic, it does seem to me that we ought to have
a climate in which the writer feels some sense of repression or despair
of God's control over contemporary events (to be sure, I sometimes feel
that way today!) and some sense of the urgent hope for God's final
resolution of all the terrors of history. One might see that in the
deepening crisis of race-relations between Jews and Greeks in Palestine
and the increasing inability of the imperial administration to cope with
random terrorism in the streets of Palestine (sounds like northern
Ireland, doesn't it? or so I've thought for the past thirty odd years),
and it would make sense thus for such a book to emerge in Palestine in
those years, but there doesn't really seem to be any internal pointer to
Palestine's conditions. Then there is the reference to established
churches of Asia (the Roman province), to whom the seven letters are
sent. I just don't see how it can be as early as the sixties.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
------------------------------
From: perry.stepp@chrysalis.org
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 95 11:09:18
Subject: before you buy BAGD
Before you purchase BAGD, you should consider the fact that a new edition is
due out soon. (At least, that was the last I heard from someone "in the
know.")
BTW, when I need portability, Gingrich's "Little BAG" seems to me to be the
obvious choice.
Questions for Hobbs, Conrad, et. al.--how valuable is Schmoller's
*Handkonkordanz*? I have never really made much use of it except as a
concordance, but it attempts to offer a sort of compressed lexicon as well. Of
course, the "definitions" are in Latin, so it's not for everybody.
Perry L. Stepp,
Baylor University
------------------------------
From: Timster132@aol.com
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 15:40:14 -0500
Subject: DSS CD-ROM
TO: b-greek@virginia.edu (Biblical Greek)
FROM: Timster132@aol.com (Tim Staker)
To those interested in software and Bible manuscripts:
I just bought _The Dead Sea Scrolls Revealed_ (for Windows), an new mutli
- -media presentation of the Dead Sea Scrolls. And it is impressive. And a
good price too: $59.95.
DSS Revealed combines motion video, pics, and texts to present the
history, location, discovery, deciphering, debates concerning the DSS texts.
There are photos of some of the mss, and translations of many of the
scrolls. The scrolls are presented in 3 catagories: Sectarian, Biblical and
Apocryphal. The Scroll displayer can actually show a scroll unrolled at a
certain column and have a tanslation in a window beneath it. Wow.
I have preveiwed a few of the videos, which appear in a small window on
the right. Some interviews which the old DSS scholars are here. Others show
the lay of the land near Qumran.
At first the music is inspiring, but after a while feels hokey.
Everytime you open a new video window, you hear angelic choir singing
"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH". You get the idea.
Most of what I have seen and read so far in this program suggests
a conservative (ie traditional) scholarship/interpretation. The Qumran
community is considered Essene (rather than Saducee or anything else). And I
didn't see any new texts here. There is the copper scroll, the Isaiah
scroll, etc. that have been public for years.
IMPORTANT: You really want to have 8 MB of ram to run this program.
I have a 486 DX2 running at 66MHz, but only 4 MB RAM. It can run with 4
MB of RAM, but it gets bogged down, and it is a slow wait (30 sec - 1 min)
for videos, etc. to pop up.
In the setup there are three options, and if you have only 4 MB of RAM,
you will need to choose the maximum installation, which will take 17.5 MB of
Hard Drive space (most of this is the video section).
It takes less Hard drive space (as little as 3 MB) with 8 MB RAM machines.
Good news for Mac users. It will also run on a MAC. In fact, it looks
like the code was written for a Mac. It uses QuickTime.
If only we had something like this with NT Greek mss. Of course, the
DSS are most relevant to NT study, since the time period of Qumran and the NT
overlap. There are sections on this CD which deal with Christianity and its
similarities with Qumran and the DSS.
Enjoy.
In Christ,
Tim Staker
------------------------------
From: WINBROW@aol.com
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 16:45:02 -0500
Subject: Date of Revelation
Carl Conrad wrote
"I just don't see how it (Revelation) can be as early as the sixties."
I agree completely. I know that in recent years the tendency has been to
attribute Revelation to the threat of persecution or to general conditions,
but I think that Domitian is getting let off the hook. Coins certainly
support the claim to divinity and the historians while not telling us about
government sponsored persecutions certainly picture the demand for worship.
He had one of his own assistents killed for "atheism," a charge later
leveled at Christians. The letter of Pliny, the younger from Pontus shows
that persecution was a matter of course less than a generation later and even
mentions some who had recanted of being Christians as long ago as 20 years.
I don't think that the governor of a province just north of Asia could have
assumed that a person who would not deny being a Christian should be punished
"for such pertinacity" whether they have committed any crimes or not unless
it had already been done for some time. I think the evidence of persecution
of Christians at least by local rulers in Asia and elsewhere during the time
of Domitian has a lot of evidence to support it. Revelation 13 surely
reflects this persecution from Rome (the beast that comes by sea) and the
local rulers (the two horned beast who usesl his power received from the
first beast to make people worship the first beast.)
The claim that the temple must still be standing for chapter 11 to make sense
does not stand up. The ancient tabernacle built by Moses would fit chapter
11 even better. I think that some are trying to define "apocalyptic"
literature two narrowly. I still agree with D.S. Russell that the
apocalyptic movement grew out of prophecy. What makes Revelation different
from the various Jewish works is that it is a Christian Apocalypse. The
Jewish writers could work out the evil age and age to come much more simply.
The Christian writer had to look back to the coming of Messiah, a
complicating factor in working out the present evil age and the age to come.
He had to explain evil as a present reality in spite of the fact that
Messiah has come. His major message is an evangelistic one--keep on
witnessing even in times like these. To orient his message too much toward
the remote future is what whacky interpretations (I hope that's not too
harsh.)
Carlton Winbery
Louisiana College
------------------------------
From: WINBROW@aol.com
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 16:50:43 -0500
Subject: Dictionaries
OK, OK I surrender. I really don't feel comfortable asking Greek students at
any stage to buy the UBS dictionary. I prefer the intermediate Liddell and
Scott and have even given some good students the abridged BAG. The concept
of a simple dictionary that gives the most common irregular forms in
alphabetical listing is a good one. I also give a list of such verbs and
require students to memorize all forms as soon as possible.
Carlton Winbery
LC
------------------------------
From: k.share@genie.geis.com
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 95 21:49:00 UTC
Subject: Lexicons
Additions to the many lexicon comments:
ABS has a new LXX lexicon. The first vol (A-I) is available now and they
say the second will be available later this year. I think the price of the
first vol is about $20. # 800-322-4253.
Oxford lists a forthcoming printing of the 9th edition of L&S with a revised
supplement (2378 total p.) The supplement is supposed to be a complete
replacement of the 1968 supplement. Price is $100 until May 15. The new
supplement is available separately at $52 (288 p.) # 800-451-7556.
The Oxford sale also covers the 3 basic editions of L&S @ $108 for the big
one, $28 for the Intermediate and $24 for the Abridged.
Ken Share
k.share@genie.geis.com
------------------------------
From: Georg Stubkjaer Adamsen <gsadamsn@login.dknet.dk>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 1995 17:57:25 -0100
Subject: Pseudonymity and Apocalypsis/-ses
Timster132@aol.com wrote (not to me):
>> While you point out that it is not written pseudonymously, actually,
it very well could be, whether its author was ascribing his work to John
the apostle or John of Ephesus. That this work is ascribed to such a
well-known author (in either case) and yet this book was slow in gaining
universal usage and acceptance in the church may point to pseudonymity
(although the apocalyptic nature of the book would be enough to scare off
many literalist Latins and others as well). <<
That's not the usual definition of pseudonymity when working with
apocalypses. There is quite a difference. There is some evidence that
already Paul knew that his letters could be imitated and he warned againt
it. When I read the words of John 14-16 and see how hearing the apostles
word is like hearing the words of Jesus then I can't explain how we
should believe the early church to accept a "new" writing proposing to be
written by a well-known author. Why should it be so easy to make a fake?
And let me add: there is no need to think that the authors of e.g. the
Jewish apocalypses really thought that the readers didn't know who the
real author was or at least: that the real author wasn't e.g. Henoch.
- --
Georg S. Adamsen, Denmark
------------------------------
From: Georg Stubkjaer Adamsen <gsadamsn@login.dknet.dk>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 1995 18:17:16 -0100
Subject: Revelation and the Canon History
Timster132@aol.com wrote:
> Seriously, it seems the reason John the Revelator was identified by
> Tradition with John the Apostle was to give it apostolic authority,
> something much needed for a document having trouble getting in the
> canon.
I think you turn this matter upside down. The book was considered
canonical because it was attributed to the apostle. The reason it wasn't
accepted everywhere in spite of this fact was the chiliastic
interpretation of the book. As far as I remember the canon history, this
was one of the _sine qua non_ canonical features. They didn't _invent_
the idea of Revelation having apostolic authorship.
- --
Georg S. Adamsen, Denmark
------------------------------
From: Georg Stubkjaer Adamsen <gsadamsn@login.dknet.dk>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 1995 17:41:32 -0100
Subject: Papias and dating of Revelation (was: John)
DDDJ@aol.com wrote:
> <<The earlier testimony that contradicts the notion is that of
> Papias, who said (according to two later quotations from Papias,
> whose original writings unfortunately are lost) that John of
> Zebedee was martyred by the Jews, which probably refers to Judea.
> Mark 10:35-39 is normally understood as referring to martyrdoms
> of John and James of Zebedee having occurred prior to the writing
> of Mark.>>
> THis depends on your dating of Revelation since I date it as 60 or so,
> I have no problem with John as writer and John as martyr. Now John as
> the author of John and epistles of John is another Keetle of fish
It also depends on your interpretation of Papias and the sources in which
you have the fragments of Papias. It's quite interesting, and to those
among you who read German I will recommend Gerhard Maier: _Die
Johannesoffenbarung und die Kirche_ (WUNT, 25). Tuebingen, 1981, pp. 1-
69. Unfortunately _I_ can't recommend his chiliasm. But it is the only
treatment of the history of Revelation, its reception and its
interpretation from the beginning to today, as Georg Kretschmar: _Die
Offenbarung des Johannes_. Die Geschichte ihrer Auslegung im 1.
Jahrtausend (Zuerich, 1985) only covers the first millennium.
My personal opinion is that we can not date Revelation with any
certainty. And neither Nero nor Domitian would fit the picture of a
'satanic trinity' (Apc 12-13). At last there is also some strong evidence
that the apostle John did live in Ephesus and grew very old. As far as I
remember there may even be a reference to his dying in the end of the
reign of Domitian.
- --
Georg S. Adamsen, Denmark
------------------------------
From: Georg Stubkjaer Adamsen <gsadamsn@login.dknet.dk>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 1995 18:29:55 -0100
Subject: Re: Revelation/Apocalypse
Greg Doudna <gdoudna@ednet1.osl.or.gov> wrote:
>
> First, there is no claim in the NT or out of the NT until mid
> second century making this identification.
True.
> Second, it seems counterindicated on internal grounds since John the
prophet, the author of Rev 1, never claims to be an apostle and appears
to be distinguished from the "twelve apostles" later in Rev.
Only Paul claims that he is an apostle. Even Paul describes
himself in prophetical terms e.g. in Galatians. Paul does claim
himself to be an apostle, but there are always serious rethorical
reasons for that. In Revelation there is nothing but a few
sentences which could be interpreted as denying his apostolicity
(if we for a moment accept the author as the apostle). And about
the "twelve apostles" being destinguised from John: considering
the imagery in Revelation it would be very strange if John had
written, and me and my eleven colleague-apostles' names were
written at the portals of the city. So I don't think you can use
this for determining authorship.
> Third, earlier testimony contradicts the notion.
>
> The earlier testimony that contradicts the notion is that of
> Papias, who said (according to two later quotations from Papias,
> whose original writings unfortunately are lost) that ... [ the rest
> deleted]
I have already written too much today but I want to emphasize that
it is unfortunate that Papias and Eusebius are so often cited as
evidence againt apostolic authorship. I haven't read Hengel's book
(yet) but I have read Gerhard Maier: _Die Johannesoffenbarung und
die Kirche_, which has a very detailed analysis of Papias and
Eusebius. What is particularly interesting is that Dr. Maier shows
that only the apostolic authority of Revelation can explain why so
many was concerned about proving its non-apostolicity.
>
> > I'd like to know why it is thought Revelation wasn't written
> > against the background of persecution.
>
> Very good point. The Domitian persecution has basically
> vanished for lack of evidence. But the internal evidence of
> Revelation points to the time of authorship in the time of the
> Jewish War, late 60's.
What is this internal evidence? Is it not true, that the Neronian
persecution did not happen in Asia, only in Rome?
> The Neronian persecution is uncontested.
> J. Christian Wilson has written some good current articles
> rehabilitating the old view of an early dating of Revelation.
> I gave a paper on this subject at a regional SBL a year ago--
> and developed the idea that the second beast of Rev 13, the
> "false prophet", was Josephus.
This is a surprise. Why should a Christian prophet (if you prefer)
writing for churches in Asia make Josephus part of a 'satanic
trinity'? That's really too fancy.
> As Wilson says, Revelation is
> not pseudepigraphic, and it contains true prophecy. The
> sixth head or emperor who "is" is either Nero or Galba. This
> is the time of writing. What is then projected ahead does not
> come to pass accurately--a sign of reading a true prophecy as
> opposed to later pseudepigrapha.
Well, if you imagine whatever you like and finds that "history"
doesn't support it, then you have your dividing point is not
methodologically sound. I haven't seen any un-edited list of
emperors which can support any theory of this kind. Off course it
is true prophecy, but we haven't seen the prophecy come to pass
yet ;-) (Well, that was my humble confession).
>
> The Domitian dating has no internal evidence in Revelation
> in its support. It derives from external tradition whose
> earliest attestation is Irenaeus, late second century. From
> the internal evidence of Revelation, Irenaeus was either
> mistaken or misunderstood what he had received.
I agree.
> Revelation
> is a window into the fevered time of the Jewish War.
I don't agree, as you may have found out.
- --
Georg S. Adamsen, Denmark
------------------------------
From: Georg Stubkjaer Adamsen <gsadamsn@login.dknet.dk>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 1995 20:16:15 -0100
Subject: Re: Date of Revelation
Yarn!
The best supplement to the best offline newsreader!
Lines: 101
Carl W Conrad wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Mar 1995, Greg Doudna wrote:
> >
> > Dennis of DDDJ@aol.com wrote:
> > > This depends on your dating of Revelation since I date
> > > it as 60 or so . . .
> >
> > Would you elaborate your reasons for this dating?
>
> Frankly this struck me as curious too. I don't hold any
> particular brief for the time of Domitian, but the book
> is distinctly anti-Roman (does anyone doubt the
> identification of Babylon with Rome?)
Yes, I do - and my wife ;-) Babylon is a metaphor in the same
way as Jerusalem is a metaphor. Jerusalem is the bride of
Jesus, i.e. the people of God, while Babylon is the people-
being-not-God's people, (exactly ?) as in the OT. Furthermore,
Babylon is to a very high degree connected with the dragon and
the two animals in Apc 12-13. The description of these three
animals is clearly an anti-image of God, known in German as
"die teufliche Trinitaet". The imagery of these animals is
from Daniel, but in Apc it is combined with Ps 2, which is
about the resurrection and ascension of Christ. The coming
Kingdom in Daniel is the kingdom of Christ which is already
here and yet not. Here is more than Rome. I will not deny that
part of this description of the devil and his people resembles
that of the description of Rome, but it is much more than
that. Now, many say that we see the demonized state here and
that this is very different from e.g. Romans 13. But why? That
God has an opponent (the devil) and that you either serve God
or the devil, it certainly not a new idea in Revelation. So
why shouldn't John be allowed to describe the opposite of
Christ's kingdom in terms taken from the only kingdom that
people knew without identifying His kingdom with it?
> and it has its
> internal references to Patmos off Ephesos.
Yes, but I have still not been able to find any evidence that
Patmos was in fact used as an island for exiled. And if you
don't know that that was the case then you only is informed
that John was there and this may be the (only) reason of the
partial letter form.
> Despite the
> fact that it's been suggested that we don't need to
> postulate persecution as a climate for the writing of
> apocalyptic, it does seem to me that we ought to have a
> climate in which the writer feels some sense of repression
> or despair of God's control over contemporary events (to
> be sure, I sometimes feel that way today!) and some sense
> of the urgent hope for God's final resolution of all the
> terrors of history.
Yes, but that is not anything special for the Book of
Revelation as you certainly know. If I'm correct in my
interpretation then the problem is the devil and his power.
This was certainly true, and is today as well.
> One might see that in the deepening
> crisis of race-relations between Jews and Greeks in
> Palestine and the increasing inability of the imperial
> administration to cope with random terrorism in the
> streets of Palestine (sounds like northern Ireland,
> doesn't it? or so I've thought for the past thirty odd
> years), and it would make sense thus for such a book to
> emerge in Palestine in those years, but there doesn't
> really seem to be any internal pointer to Palestine's
> conditions.
No, but how much evidence is there of such conditions in Asia
in the _first_ century? There is much less evidence of
persecution in the Book of Revelation than in Acts. And Acts
is not called anti-Roman. Perhaps Acts has in fact a clue to
this problem: The local city cult could be the problem. But
this didn't (as far as we know) cause the early Christians to
accuse Rome. Quite to the contrary, it was seen as a
opposition to be expected from ordinary people because nobody
considered religion to be unimportant or private. And in spite
of this Paul relegated his case to the Emperor of Rome. Has
John omitted any reference to the Emperor because is was too
dangerous to write it _or_ because the Emperor wasn't that
important?
> Then there is the reference to established
> churches of Asia (the Roman province), to whom the seven
> letters are sent. I just don't see how it can be as early
> as the sixties.
Why not? We don't know, but that is a problem of ours.
However, I don't think that we can date Revelation with any
certainty. But this uncertainty should prohibit us to make too
far reaching theses on the basis of dating etc.
Well, my bed is calling!
- --
Georg S. Adamsen, Denmark
------------------------------
From: Georg Stubkjaer Adamsen <gsadamsn@login.dknet.dk>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 1995 14:17:26 -0100
Subject: Re: genre of Revelation (sorry, a rather long note)
Greg Carey wrote:
> Art's suggestion that Revelation is an "anti-apocalypse" which more
> resembles other NT documents than ancient apocalyptic literature
> sounds like an attempt to distance the NT from its socioliterary
> context. The tendency is to argue that the NT is somehow "unique,"
> and, by implication, not dependent upon Jewish and Hellenistic
> influences.
Well, that is not my impression. But maybe we not all agree to what its
socioliterary context is, at least not when it comes to the narrow
context of the author and readers of Revelation. I haven't found any well
reasoned proposal of this apocalyptic context in the early church. NT is
both unique and traditional which a lot of intertextuality analyses have
shown. In the case of Revelation there is a overwhelminly large number of
analyses of its relationship to the OT and, to a lesser degree, to the
not-OT apocalyptic writings. It is, however, difficult to establish an
apocalyptic socioliterary context. One of the reasons is that many of the
apocalypses can not be dated with any certainty before Revelation. It may
be possible that there was in fact such a apocalyptic socioliterary
context but we haven't really been able to show how John (who ever he
was) should be connected with it. But maybe I'm wrong?
I'm very convinced that it is helpful to study the other apocalypses but
I'm increasingly find the Apocalypse more and more unique in its partial
traditional symbolism. Se e.g. Richard Bauckham: _The Climax of Prophecy_
(Edinburgh, 1993). If NT was totally unique the hearers/readers would not
have been able to understand it.
> But the suggestion has huge problems. In what way is Revelation more
> like the rest of the NT than, say, like 2 Baruch?
In many ways. E.g. Christology, theo-logy, eschatology, ecclesiology
> Like what?
> Hebrews?
Certainly. Hebrews and Revelation is connected theologically. E.g. the
ecclesiology and eschatology, where the Old Testament Exodus-motives are
very closely related: compare the "sabbatismos" and the description of
the New Jerusalem (the city with foundations) in Hebrews with the same
themes in Revelation.
James?
Perhaps. There is some tendencies in Revelation which show close
connections with the sapiential traditions in James and e.g. Rom 5.
> That Revelation may be a Christian apocalypse makes it no less an
> apocalypse.
No, but the question is _whether_ it is an apocalypse. And: if you say
that it is in fact an apocalypse, but an apocalypse which are different
in a number of areas then you have the problem of defining the genre. See
F. Mazzaferri: _The Genre of the Book of Revelation from a Source-
critical Perspective_ (Berlin/New York, 1989).
> Second, how is Revelation "anti-apocalyptic"? Like 2 and 3 Baruch
> and 4 Ezra, Revelation sees the present as a time of tribulation
> (1.9) and envisions a divinely actualized remedy. In Revelation,
> the remedy has both temporal and heavenly dimensions, both of which
> are attested in ancient apocalyptic literature.
I don't think that these temporal and heavenly dimensions is attested in
ancient apocalyptic literature. Se e.g. H.W. Guenther: _Der Nah- und
Enderwartungshorizont in der Apokalypse des heiligen Johannes_. (FzB 41).
Stuttgart, 1980. As I think, Revelation has to be interpreted (like
Guenther among others), there is a typically "already - not yet"-theology
('die eschatologische Spannung' proposed by Cullmann (and Kuemmel)) which
you can not find in the "other" apocalypses. And the reason is that this
eschatological tension is grounded in the Christology: Christ _has_ made
us (the readers, i.e. the church) a kingdom and priests to Christ, and
still he can promise even that to those who conquers. This tension is one
of the general threads in the NT, even if there are some differences in
emphasis.
> It is certainly true that Revelation's genre is problematic. The
> book begins by calling itself an apocalypse and is full of
> apocalyptic motifs. But also within the first chapter it claims to
> be prophecy and imitates Pauline letters. My own spin on this mixed
> bag is that the author (actually, the narrator) _uses_ all of the
> above forms (plus a few) in an attempt to legitimate his message.
> Ancient rhetoricians called this dynamic _hthos_, the demonstration
> of a speaker's knowledge, good faith, and virtue. Apocalyptic and
> prophecy validate the author's access to hidden knowledge about and
> from the divine; the Pauline formula expresses John's good faith
> by placing the audience in a familiar literary and religious context.
Well, I think the _hthos_-dimension _is_ very important. However, it only
works, when the author as well as the readers consider what is being said
to be true. So I can not agree if you mean that all this is only or
mainly done to validate the author's access to hidden knowledge. After
all, how much is hidden knowledge in Revelation? Most of it you find in
the rest of the Bible. I don't think that Revelation add anything
important. I am sure that the rhetoric dimension is important. John wants
to be aneffective "prophet". But there is much more to it than that.
John's rhetorical strategy is much more interesting. There is a very
close connection between the form, content and purpose, as there always
is when the author/speaker is a competent one.
- --
Georg S. Adamsen, Denmark
------------------------------
From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 19:20:44 -0600 (GMT-0600)
Subject: Re: before you buy BAGD
On Sat, 1 Apr 1995 perry.stepp@chrysalis.org wrote:
> Questions for Hobbs, Conrad, et. al.--how valuable is Schmoller's
> *Handkonkordanz*? I have never really made much use of it except as a
> concordance, but it attempts to offer a sort of compressed lexicon as well. Of
> course, the "definitions" are in Latin, so it's not for everybody.
Schmoller's *Handkonkordanz* is, IMHO, a pretty handy little rfc; I've
used it frequently to grab for quick info while responding to this list!
I don't think it is of much real use as a dictionary unless you know your
Latin fairly well, but the Latin serves the useful purpose of
distinguishing the senses of a much-used word. Its use as a concordance
is quite enough, I think; it's nice to be able to see not only WHERE a
word gets used in the NT, but also a sizable chunk of the context in each
instance--and all of this in a truly handy size.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
------------------------------
From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 19:25:15 -0600 (GMT-0600)
Subject: Re: DSS CD-ROM
Sounds terrific. If it uses QuickTime it almost certainly was written for
Mac. More and more items now are functional across platforms. I look
forward to seeing this. I think some of this DSS stuff is viewable on the
Web from U of Pennsylvania, but I haven't tried to access it yet.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #645
*****************************
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
To unsubscribe from this list write
majordomo@virginia.edu
with "unsubscribe b-greek-digest" as your message content. For other
automated services write to the above address with the message content
"help".
For further information, you can write the owner of the list at
owner-b-greek@virginia.edu
You can send mail to the entire list via the address:
b-greek@virginia.edu