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b-greek-digest V1 #713
b-greek-digest Friday, 19 May 1995 Volume 01 : Number 713
In this issue:
washing of regeneration (fwd)
Re: Some recent threads
Oral histories (was Some recent threads)
RE: TOPIC-COMMENT
Re: Oral histories (was Some recent threads)
Re: Oral histories (was Some recent threads)
Biography
Re: washing of regeneration (fwd)
Re: Some recent threads
Re: Biography
Re: Manuscript photographs
Re: Manuscript photographs
Colwell rule
Re: Manuscript photographs
Re: Manuscript photographs
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jim Hill <jim@pasteur.hsf.uab.edu>
Date: Thu, 18 May 95 08:50:04 -0500
Subject: washing of regeneration (fwd)
Please comment on the validity of the comments on Titus 3:5 which are found
below.
> Subject: Re: washing of regeneration
>
> Robert Lingle was here:
> >
> > I assume in the following that by "baptismal regeneration"
> > you mean the doctrine I espouse that a person is still lost
> > in sin until he is baptized in water...
> >
> > On Tue, 16 May 1995, Jim Beale wrote:
> >
[Titus 3]
> > > 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
> > > but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing
> > > of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
> > >
> > > To support baptismal regeneration this verse would have to
> > > say: "by the regeneration of washing" but it doesn't. It
> > > says by the "washing of regeneration" which is done by the
> > > Holy Spirit. This seems to be very clearly an apposition.
> >
> > You have made a very bold statement here. I am going to have
> > to ask you to provide more support for it. You make it sound
> > as though there is some grammatical/syntactical reason that
> > "washing of regeneration" cannot refer to water baptism.
> >
> > Prof. Thayer, the well-known lexicographer, presumably
> > knowledgeable about the proper use of the genitive case
> > in Greek, thinks it is a reference to baptism. He
> > also notes that the word "washing" (LOUTRON) is used
> > in ecclesiatical writings for baptism.
> >
> > Robert Lingle, Jr.
>
> There are several local reasons why this text should not be
> taken as referring to baptismal regeneration. There are other
> reasons which are very strong for rejecting the idea completely,
> but the first one for this passage is:
>
> The greek fragment LOUTROU PALIGGENSIAS is rendered
> "washing of-regeneration" not "regeneration of-washing."
> It seems pretty clear that PALIGGENESIAS is defining of
> LOUTROU since while both are nominatives, PALIGGENESIAS is
> a genitive nominative. The idea is: "the-washing-that-
> comes-from-regeneration." Since it is the Holy Spirit that
> regenerates, this is not a reference to water baptism.
>
>
> In Christ,
> Jim Beale
>
------------------------------
From: "Edgar M. Krentz" <emkrentz@mcs.com>
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 09:44:37 -0600
Subject: Re: Some recent threads
Carl Conrad's recent communication about the nature of scholarly
discussion, comunication, translation, and the like was excellent--and=
good
common sense and courtesy to boot.
We all owe him thanks for that one. Incidentally, I find Morton Smith=
a
fascinating person, both to read and years ago to hear. I was present=
when
he made that much-remarked analysis of Jacob Neusner. It is often=
so
difficult to separate person from thought--though I try to do that=
as much
as possible.
One the other hand, someone [not I] ought to begin collecting the=
oral
history about such scholars. I think of Arthur Darby Nock, about=
whom
stories are legion, E. R. Goodenough, Wilamowitz in relation to Norden,=
and
the like. I am thinking of something like Hans F. von Campenhausen's
_Theologen Spies und Spass-. I recall the anecdotal conversation=
of
Hildebrecht Hommel in the gem=FCtliche Abende that he hosted for=
his
Hauptseminar in T=FCbingen in the sixties. People who studied with=
Ernst
K=E4semann share anecdotes about him still. One learns much about=
scholars in
this para-scholarly exchange.
Edgar Krentz <emkrentz@mcs.com>
New Testament, Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
1100 East 55th St., Chicago, IL 60615
(Voice) Home: 312/947-8105; Off.: 312-753-0752
------------------------------
From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 10:05:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Oral histories (was Some recent threads)
On Thu, 18 May 1995, Edgar M. Krentz wrote:
>
> On the other hand, someone [not I] ought to begin collecting the oral
> history about such scholars. I think of Arthur Darby Nock, about whom
> stories are legion ...
Do you mean THE Arthur Darby Nock who used to parade back and forth atop
Eliot House on Saturday nights, who used to throw the pages of papers he
was delivering over his shoulders and guffaw while trying to retrieve one
that he needed for a reference (like the immediately preceding one, when
he had changed pages in the middle of a sentence)? Yes, there are many
stories of him. And I'd like to hear them of others too. Not necessarily
at this venue ... But then ...
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: perry.stepp@chrysalis.org
Date: Thu, 18 May 95 10:12:14
Subject: RE: TOPIC-COMMENT
Re. the use of the article in Greek:
Most of the stuff I'm aware of addressing this topic comes from people
associated with the Summer Institute of Linguistics (SIL) in Duncanville TX.
The approach utilized is related to discourse analysis (see R. Terry on this
forum).
Anyway, Steven Levinsohn has written a couple of things: an article or two in
*Occasional Papers in Translation and Textlinguistics* and his book *Discourse
Features of New Testament Greek*. The latter is available from the SIL, 7500
W. Camp Wisdom Road, Dallas TX 75236, as is R. Terry's book (which is a quite
informative introduction to discourse analysis and how it affects exegesis.)
Fascinating stuff.
Perry L. Stepp, Baylor University
------------------------------
From: "Larry W. Hurtado" <hurtado@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 11:22:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Oral histories (was Some recent threads)
On A.D. Nock, see the "obiter dicta" section of the two-vol. collected
works of Nock edited by Zeph Stewart. Mostly profound, sometimes
amusing, but not the colorful behavioral stories one hears of him.
One of my own favorites is one quoted by my doctoral supervisor
E. J. Epp, who related that Nock used to say on the qustion of Paul's
Hellenistic influences that Paul didn't know enough about Hellenism to
pass the mid-term exam in Nock's undergraduate course.
Larry Hurtado, Religion, Univ. of Manitoba
------------------------------
From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 11:27:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Oral histories (was Some recent threads)
On Thu, 18 May 1995, Carl W Conrad wrote:
>
> Do you mean THE Arthur Darby Nock who used to parade back and forth atop
> Eliot House on Saturday nights
I meant to add "stark naked."
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: Paul Moser <PMOSER@cpua.it.luc.edu>
Date: Thu, 18 May 95 14:41 CDT
Subject: Biography
Should listmembers choose to exchange curious
biography, oral or otherwise, I would suggest that
we consider an irenic, if at times elusive, biblical
scholar: Franz Bibfeldt. His seminal festschrift
is now available in paperback: *The Unrelieved Paradox:
Studies in the Theology of Franz Bibfeldt*, eds.
M. Marty & J. Brauer (Eerdmans, 1994). A household
name among Chicago NT scholars, Bibfeldt is especially
noted for these books: *I Haven't God a Q: Epistemic
Dissonance and the Question of Synoptic Origins* (Berlin/
Oxford: privately published); *Bonding of the Will:
Heterodoxy and Orthodoxy in the Practice of Men Hugging*
(Minneapolis: Bly Books, 1992); *Eggnog Hammadi: Newly
Discovered Texts Relating to Egyptian Gnostic Season
Libations* (Cairo: Pyramid Press, 1984). His unpublished
classic, "Empathy with the Circumcised" (1950), has
motivated many a young NT scholar in Chicago. Robert
McAfee Brown's blurb on the book's cover notes that
"it remains only to free the Bibfeldt corpus from the
rather-too-possessive hands of the Chicago Schule." Given
the fine gender sensitivities of this list, may I
recommend this contribution to the festschrift: "The
Braunschweiger-Bibfeldts: The Metaphysical Incarnation
of Wo/man"? Bibfeldt was, of course, The Wittenburg
Door's 1994 Theologian of the Year.--Paul Moser, Loyola
University of Chicago.
------------------------------
From: WINBROW@aol.com
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 19:51:53 -0400
Subject: Re: washing of regeneration (fwd)
Jim Hill asked about Titus 3:5 and quoted a statement that contained the
following line,
>LOUTROU since while both are nominatives, PALIGGENESIAS is a genitive
nominative.<
That sentence is obviously garbled. Both are genitives, the first a genitive
of means and the second modifies the first in some way. It is very difficult
to see it as a genitive of apposition for it is difficult to see the two
nouns as identical. This may be like the situation with Acts 2:38. Both
nouns are generally related but not identical; hence, the washing (clearly
baptism) that is related to regeneration. It is difficult to keep the
theological wars that we fight out of the exegetical process.
Carlton Winbery
LA College
------------------------------
From: WINBROW@aol.com
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 19:54:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Some recent threads
Was it Morton Smith who said that Jacob Neusner never had an unpublished
thought?
Carlton Winbery
LA College
------------------------------
From: WINBROW@aol.com
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 19:56:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Biography
I would have loved to have met this Bibfeldt fellow!
Carlton Winbery
------------------------------
From: "Edgar M. Krentz" <emkrentz@mcs.com>
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 19:04:51 -0600
Subject: Re: Manuscript photographs
I did not save the request from the originator of this string. I was
stimulated by John Hall's response to the request to post the following.
The two best bibliographies of MSS reproductions at present are
Leon Vaganay and Christian-Bernhard Amphoux, _An Introdukction to New
Testament Textual Criticism_ 2nd ed. (Cambridge: Cambridge University
Press, 1991) 192-196. They do not indicate whether the editions are still
in print.
Bruce M. Metzger, _The Text of the New Testament_. 3rd ed. (New York:
Oxford University Press, 1992), scattered in the text and notes of chapter
II, pp. 36-92.
Manuscript reproductions are very expensive. Metzger also has an
introductory workbook for NT textual criticism. I do not have the
bibliographical data for that in hand. There are also available
photographic plates of the great Isaiah scroll from Qumran.
>>> I would also love to get a hold of Plates of papyri, and codices. I saw the
>>> reprint of Codex Aleph (or was it B), but nothing else.
>>
>>Do any of you know how to get a copy of the reprint mentioned here? I am
>>also interested in information on photographic reproductions of any of
>>the best manuscripts.
>
>I see so many people quote things from the various MSS that I wouldn't mind
>getting plates to them. I'll let you know if I find anything.
>
>John Calvin Hall - doulos tou Kuriou 'Ihsou Xristou
>Pensacola, Florida
>johnhall@gulf.net
Edgar Krentz <emkrentz@mcs.com>
New Testament, Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
1100 East 55th St., Chicago, IL 60615
(Voice) Home: 312/947-8105; Off.: 312-753-0752
------------------------------
From: WINBROW@aol.com
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 20:13:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Manuscript photographs
Edgar Krentz wrote,
"Metzger also has an introductory workbook
for NT textual criticism. I do not have the
bibliographical data for that in hand."
I think that is Biblical Manuscripts or NT
Manuscripts, but it contains plates of LXX
pages for some OT books. It is published by
Oxford Univ. Press. There is a rather large folio
version of Uncial Manuscripts of the NT and a
separate folio version of Minuscule Manuscripts
of the NT, but I cannot remember who did the
editing. There are about 40 or fifty plates in
each. I used both volumes along with facsimilies of
about fifty other manuscripts in the library at
N.O. Baptist Seminary. They have a complete facsimile
copy of Aleph, Alexandrinus, Vaticanus, and micro-
film of 25 or thirty minuscules, including 666, a real
beast.
Carlton Winbery
LA College
------------------------------
From: RoyRM@aol.com
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 23:42:08 -0400
Subject: Colwell rule
Subj: Colwell rule
Date: 95-05-18 23:35:21 EDT
From: RoyRM
To: b-greek@viriginia.edu
Hi all,
A recent chat with a Jehovah's Witness and the recent thread concerning the
article got me thinking about the Colwell rule, which states that if a
definite noun precedes a copulative verb, it is ususally anarthrous. Turner,
in _Syntax_ states that Colwell's rule at best indicates tendencies (pg 184).
While Carson in _Exegetical Fallacies_ seems to give it even less regard,
citing a study by one of his students that indicated approximately equal
numbers of definite and indefinite uses when the anarthrous predicate
nominative precedes the copulative verb (pg. 87). My question is: How
useful is the Colwell rule? Is it merely a good place to start, or is it
somewhat dated by more recent scholarship? Is there a way to determine
"definiteness" in such a construction--besides "simply" context? I would
appreciate any comments, as well as any bibliography, since I've got a pretty
sparse library.
BTW, I knew better than to "invoke" the Colwell rule to my conversant, seeing
as I had questions concerning it. Besides, he had already given me such gems
as PAS being normally translated as "another of a different kind," and
telling me that because a particular word (I forget which) had a particular
definition occuring first in Liddell and Scott, the definition should
indiciate the primary usage of the word in the Bible! All of this was a good
reminder to me to be sure of myself and responsible in my scholarship before
opening my mouth and inserting my foot!
Thanks,
Roy R. Millhouse
RoyRM@aol.com
------------------------------
From: Nichael Lynn Cramer <nichael@sover.net>
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 23:59:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Manuscript photographs
At 8:13 PM 18/05/95 -0400, WINBROW@aol.com wrote:
>Edgar Krentz wrote,
>"Metzger also has an introductory workbook
>for NT textual criticism. I do not have the
>bibliographical data for that in hand."
>
>I think that is Biblical Manuscripts or NT
>Manuscripts, but it contains plates of LXX
>pages for some OT books. It is published by
>Oxford Univ. Press.
I think perhaps two works are being conflated here: First, Metzger's
_Text of the NT_ (Oxford, 3rd ed, 1992) is his introductory textbook for NT
textual criticism. This book --like the Aland's book of the same title--
has many plate for various manuscripts[*].
Another book by Metzger is his _Manuscripts of the Greek Bible_ (Oxford,
corrected edition, 1991). Subtitled "An Introduction to Palaeography" this
volume contains many more --and larger-- plates illustrating a much broader
range of manuscripts.
[* Aland's book even manages to have the canonical reversed plate.
While we're on _that_ topic, did anyone else happen to notice the
plate in the new issue of JBL, printed upside-down, directly above
the accompanying facsimile-sketch, which was printed in the correct
orientation! ]
A (vaguely) related question: Is Kenyon's _Text of Greek Bible_ still in
print/available anywhere?
Thanks
Nichael
nichael@sover.net -- Crape Diem
Paradise Farm
Brattleboro VT
------------------------------
From: Nichael Lynn Cramer <nichael@sover.net>
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 23:59:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Manuscript photographs
At 7:04 PM 18/05/95 -0600, Edgar M. Krentz wrote:
>I did not save the request from the originator of this string. I was
>stimulated by John Hall's response to the request to post the following.
>The two best bibliographies of MSS reproductions at present are
> [...]
>Bruce M. Metzger, _The Text of the New Testament_. 3rd ed. (New York:
>Oxford University Press, 1992), scattered in the text and notes of chapter
>II, pp. 36-92.
Likewise, the corresponding chapters of the Aland's _Text of the NT_
(Eerdmans/E.J. Brill, rev ed 1989), pp 72-180.
Nichael
nichael@sover.net -- Crape Diem
Paradise Farm
Brattleboro VT
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #713
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