[Prev][Next][Index][Thread]
b-greek-digest V1 #717
b-greek-digest Tuesday, 23 May 1995 Volume 01 : Number 717
In this issue:
Word order: classical vs. nt
Let's make a critical apparatus
Re: Let's make a critical apparatus
Priority: normal
Re:Re:Colwell's rule
To: b-greek-list <b-greek@virginia.edu>
CDRom Software
Re:
Re: CDRom Software
Re: Colwell Rule
Re: Colwell rule
Unsubscribe
Re: Let's make a critical apparatus
Word order: classical vs. nt
CDRom Software
Manuscripts on the WWW
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Shaughn Daniel <zxmli05@student.uni-tuebingen.de>
Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 06:24:03 +0000
Subject: Word order: classical vs. nt
My original statement, based on Hoffmann/Siebenthal (Griechische Grammatik
zum Neuen Testament):
>>syntax is greatly influenced--
>>a) predicates are positioned more often in the middle of a sentence in
>>classical, more often at the beginning in nt (cf. hebrew);
Edgar M. Krentz's reply to above:
>In classical Greek predicates are not more often in the middle of the
>sentence. Indeed, in periodic setences they are often delayed to the veryk
>end, since that is the position of emphasis
>
>You might want to take a look at J. D. Denniston, _Greek Prose Style_
>(Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1952), especially his chapter on the order of
>words (pp. 41-59) and sentence-strucgure and antithesis (pp. 60-77).
I would love to look at Denniston! Do you have the time to post the most
appropriate section on predicative verb word-order? Further, just from a
logical standpoint, there must be some sort of rule/tendency on where the
predicate NORMALLY appears; otherwise, how would we could we ponder whether
something was emphatic due to position?
he hits pay-dirt
pay-dirt he hits
pay-dirt hits he
As for German Greek Grammars, the classic Bornemann-Risch (2. edition, 1978
Verlag Moritz Diesterweg, Frankfurt am Main) still continues to state the
following.
- ----------------
$ 144 (4) Das Praedikatsverb im Hauptsatz hat die Neigung, eine
Mittelstellung einzunehmen. Dabei ergeben sich als die gebraechlichsten
Reihenfolgen: entweder, wenn das Subjekt im Vordergrund der Aussage steht,
Subjekt-Praedikat-Objekt (z.B. Tissafernhs diaballei ton kuron pros ton
adelfon); oder, wenn das Objekt betont ist und die Verbindung zum
Vorhergehenden herstellt, Objekt-Praedikat-Subjekt (z.B. ...hlasen...eis
Tarsous: tauthn thn polin exelipon oi enoikountes meta Suennesios); oder
entsprechend Adverbiale-Praedikat-Subjekt (z.B. Entauqa emeine [in dem
vorher genannten Kelainai] Kuros hmeras triakonta). Vorangestellt wird das
Praedikat gern dann, wenn bei ihm die Anknuepfung an das Vorgergehende
liegt (z.B. Ekalese de kai tous Milhton poliorkountas), regelmaessig auch
einai als Vollverb (z.B. Esti de kai megalou basilews basileia en
Kelaivais) and ein Imperativ (z.B. bleyon pros ta orh). Geht dem Hauptsatz
ein Nebensatz voran, der eine adverbiale Bestimmung enthaelt, so folgt auf
diesen das Hauptsatzpraedikat gemaess der genannten Stellung
Adverbiale-Praedikat-Subjekt (z.B. Epeidh de sunhlqon, legei o Klearcos
tade).
my translation:
$ 144 (4) The predicative verb in a main clause has the tendency to take a
middle position. The most used series result: either, when the subject
stands in the foreground of a statement, S-P-O (e.g., greek quote); or,
when the object is emphasized and a connection to something previous is
made, O-P-S (e.g., greek quote); or accordingly Adv-P-S (e.g., greek [in
the previously named Kelainai, city on the river Marsyas, tributary of
Maeander in Asia Minor] quote). The predicate is happily placed in front
in cases when it refers to something previously stated (e.g., greek quote);
regularly also einai as a full verb (e.g., greek quote) and an imperative
(e.g., greek quote). If the main clause is preceded by a subordinate
clause, which contains an adverbial modifier, then the main clause
predicate follows the subordinate clause in accordance with the named
position Adv-P-S (e.g., greek quote).
- ----------------
My classical Greek is in such disarray that I couldn't seek to prove this
on my own. But it does interest me that there may be a quarrel among
classical greek grammarians concerning word order and with the advance of
the TLG CDRom, it may be possible to write a program to use the 65 million
word library for the purpose of statistically proving word order. It would
not be surprising to me if the above statement were wrong or needed major
modifications; it would bother me a little, but not surprise me.
Sincerely,
Shaughn Daniel
Tuebingen, Germany
------------------------------
From: J.D.F.=van=Halsema%BW_KG%TheoFilos@esau.th.vu.nl
Date: Mon, 22 May 95 10:10:09 EET
Subject: Let's make a critical apparatus
Timothy John Finney <finney@csuvax1.murdoch.edu.au> wrote:
>Jeff Kloha pointed out that we won't have a comprehensive critical
>apparatus until someone transcribes all of the manuscripts and releases
>them to the world. I completely agree.
[...]
>So the time required to transcribe the pre-1000
>AD New Testament MSS and have the basis for a critical apparatus that
>gives us virtually all of the significant known data for reconstructing
>the history of the NT text is, Time (person-hours) = 100 (MSS) * 40 (hr/5000
>words) * 100000 (words)
>which is 80 thousand person hours(!).
>Another way to look at this is to give 100 Ph.D. students the task of
>transcribing a manuscript as part of their dissertation. The time
>required is now reduced to three years (assuming full-time students).
>Of course, a great deal of the work has already been done - Tischendorf
[...]
>2) We need a coordinated effort. If there are people out there who would
>like to do this, let's work out the size of the task and parcel it out. Say
>what you are doing so that others won't double up, and do it.
I thought it was well known that this coordinated effort
is indeed undertaken in Muenster, at the Institute for New Testament
Textual Research.
They are presently in the progress of preparing the Novi Testamenti
Editio Critica Maior.
Compare the 21 volumes that have already been published in the series
'Text und Textwert der Griechischen Handschriften des Neuen Testaments'.
I hope this prevents you doing work already done (and probably better) by
Barbara Aland and her team.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Erik van Halsema |Research Assistant Free University Amsterdam
j.d.f.van_halsema@esau.th.vu.nl |Faculty of Theology
jdfvh@dds.nl |De Boelelaan 1105, 1081 HV Amsterdam, NL
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: Jeff Kloha <kloha@sauron.multiverse.com>
Date: Mon, 22 May 95 07:44:34 EDT
Subject: Re: Let's make a critical apparatus
On Mon, 22 May 95 10:10:09 EET Erik van Halsemawrote:
>Timothy John Finney <finney@csuvax1.murdoch.edu.au> wrote:
>
what you are doing so that others won't double up, and do it.
>
>I thought it was well known that this coordinated effort
> is indeed undertaken in Muenster, at the Institute for New Testament
>Textual Research.
>They are presently in the progress of preparing the Novi Testamenti
> Editio Critica Maior.
>Compare the 21 volumes that have already been published in the series
>'Text und Textwert der Griechischen Handschriften des Neuen Testaments'.
>
>I hope this prevents you doing work already done (and probably better) by
>Barbara Aland and her team.
>
I've still got a question about this. I'm under the impression that
the Text und Textwert series is not a comprehensive listing of all
variants in the textual tradition, but a selection of readings (albeit
a relatively large selection) which are considered "significant" for
determing groupings of mss. Anyone have all 21 volumes and the answer?
///////+\\\\\\\
Jeff Kloha [] Lakewood, OH
kloha@po.multiverse.com [] KCICXC
------------------------------
From: "J.W.Cressey" <J.W.Cressey@sheffield.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 13:20:48 +0100
Subject: Priority: normal
unsubscribe b-greek------------------------------
Jon Cressey
Grace Christian Fellowship
J.W.Cressey@sheffield.ac.uk
If I can help you - tell me!
------------------------------
From: amedamne@trianon.worldtel.com
Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 12:08:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re:Re:Colwell's rule
Micheal Palmer <mpalmes@email.unc.edu> wrote on
Sun, 21 May 1995 22:54:01
Subject: Re: Colwell rule
>On Fri, 19 May 1995, David Moore wrote in response to Paul Dixon's
>comments about his thesis:
>> I, for one, would be interested to see a summation of your
>> processes and conclusions. Maybe others on the list would also
>> be interested.
>I am one other who would be interested.
>Micheal W. Palmer
>Mellon Research Fellow
> 69Micheal W. Palmer
>Mellon Research Fellow
>Department of Linguistics
>University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
I too would certainly be interested.
Ameh Meyer <amedamne@trianon.worldtel.com>
------------------------------
From: Hans-Christoph Meier <hmeier@aixterm1.urz.uni-heidelberg.de>
Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 17:24:41 +0200 (METDST)
Subject: To: b-greek-list <b-greek@virginia.edu>
>>Timothy John Finney <finney@csuvax1.murdoch.edu.au> wrote:
>>
what you are doing so that others won't double up, and do it.
>>
>>I thought it was well known that this coordinated effort
>> is indeed undertaken in Muenster, at the Institute for New Testament
>>Textual Research.
>>They are presently in the progress of preparing the Novi Testamenti
>> Editio Critica Maior.
>>Compare the 21 volumes that have already been published in the series
>>'Text und Textwert der Griechischen Handschriften des Neuen Testaments'.
>>
>>I hope this prevents you doing work already done (and probably better) by
>Barbara Aland and her team.
>
>Jeff Kloha
>Jeff Kloha <kloha@po.multiverse.com> wrote
>
>I've still got a question about this. I'm under the impression that
>the Text und Textwert series is not a comprehensive listing of all
>variants in the textual tradition, but a selection of readings (albeit
>a relatively large selection) which are considered "significant" for
>determing groupings of mss. Anyone have all 21 volumes and the answer?
As far as I know there have been published 10 volumes so far (4 on the
catholic letters, 4 on the pauline letters, 2 on Acts). Jeff is right in
so far as the printed editions don't provide more than a selection of
readings. This is due to the fact that Kurt and Barbara Aland think it
impossible to PRINT all available information. " 'feststellen, was als
ueberliefert gelten muss oder darf (..)' koennen wir im Bereich des
Neuen Testaments nicht leisten" (Kurt u. Barbara Aland, Der Text des Neuen
Testaments, 2nd ed., Stuttgart, 1989, 327). The purpose of "Text und
Textwert..." is not to give full information about every reading of every
manuscript, but to classify every single manuscript before excluding the
less important ones for the task of a future Editio critica major. "Denn
nur die puren Doppelungen und Abschriften, die der byzantinische Texttyp
in grosser Fuelle bietet, wird man ausscheiden. Zurueck bleiben, je nach
Massstab, den man anlegen will, etwa 10%-20% der Gesamtmenge aller
bekannten Handschriften (..)" (this means: according to Aland and Aland only
10%-20% are of significant value for textcritisism).
However, the records on the selected readings given in "Text und
Textwert..." are exhaustive.
Moreover, I think the Aland-Institute in Muenster already has
"computerized" all manuscriptes. But I don't think they are going to let
anybody see them before the Editio critica major is finished.
For a complete edition of the New Testament papyruses see: "Das Neue
Testament auf Papyrus" (Arbeiten zur neutestamentlichen Textforschung,
ed. by Institut fuer Neutestamentliche Textforschung der westfaelischen
Wilhelms-Universitaet Muenster/Westfalen). So far "Die katholischen Briefe"
and "Die paulinischen Briefe" have been published.
excuse my english as well as my german (don't have any time left to
translate, sorry)
Hans-Christoph, Heidelberg <hmeier@ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de>
------------------------------
From: "Kevin D. Johnson" <logos@primenet.com>
Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 09:54:53 -0700
Subject: CDRom Software
What CD Rom software is available in regards to the Greek New Testament?
Where can I get more information, and what are the best packages available?
Thanks,
>>>KEVIN
------------------------------
From: David Moore <dvdmoore@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 11:31:40 -0700
Subject: Re:
Hans-Christoph Meier wrote:
>Moreover, I think the Aland-Institute in Muenster already has
>"computerized" all manuscriptes. But I don't think they are going to
let
>anybody see them before the Editio critica major is finished.
What would be nice - since we're talking about this - is to have
the individual key MSS available in transcription through a WWW or
gopher site. Often, it's not a case that one wants to know how every
MS reads on a given passage, but, rather, how a certain MS renders a
phrase. Larry Hurtado's reference for requesting microfilms and prints
on individual MSS is helpful in this sense; online, electric
transcriptions, however, would be more economical, if not quite so
certain.
David L. Moore Director of Education
Miami, FL, USA Southeastern Spanish District
Dvdmoore@ix.netcom.com of the Assemblies of God
------------------------------
From: "Philip L. Graber" <pgraber@emory.edu>
Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 14:33:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: CDRom Software
Kevin,
I use BibleWindows 3.0 (contact John Baima at jbaima@Onramp.NET) on
CDROM. It contains parsed GNT, BHS, and LXX and non-parsed Vulgate, RSV,
NRSV, and the KJV and Luther's German Bible both with On-Line Bible, a
small on-line dictionary for Greek and Hebrew plus the intermediate
Liddell-Scott and Louw-Nida, Greek, Hebrew, Coptic, and another font (for
Latin and English)--have I left anything out? I believe John is running a
student special on this CD now.
Philip Graber Graduate Division of Religion
Graduate Student in New Testament 211 Bishops Hall, Emory University
pgraber@emory.edu Atlanta, GA 30322 USA
------------------------------
From: RoyRM@aol.com
Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 14:41:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Colwell Rule
On Monday May 22, Paul Ladd wrote:
> It seems Colwell's intent was to do exactly as he >erroneously
>deduced. His rule, then, seems absurd.
This was the idea I was getting from everything I had read, but I couldn't
find it stated. Thanks for your time!
Roy R. Millhouse
RoyRM@aol.com
------------------------------
From: Rod Decker <rod.j.decker@uwrf.edu>
Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 14:23:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Colwell rule
I have a 10K text file that examines Colwell's rule, based on his original
article (which many haven't bothered to read). It includes some evaluation
as well as a brief bibliography of others who have interacted with Colwell.
Some examples outside Jn. are included.
I don't think we need a 10K post on b-greek :) but I'd be glad to send it
to any who ask via email (don't post your request here, that just clutters
the list unnecessarily). It is also available in Mac Word 5.1 format with
Graeca font at 14K. I'll stuff the Mac version with DiskDoubler; if any
requester can read that format please say so.
Rod
(email address is only good for about another week...)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rodney J. Decker Calvary Theological Seminary
Asst. Prof./NT 15800 Calvary Rd.
Kansas City, Missouri 64147
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
From: Clay100000@aol.com
Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 16:32:01 -0400
Subject: Unsubscribe
Unsubscribe B-Greek
------------------------------
From: Vincent Broman <broman@np.nosc.mil>
Date: Mon, 22 May 95 14:07:20 PDT
Subject: Re: Let's make a critical apparatus
J.D.F.=van=Halsema%BW_KG%TheoFilos@esau.th.vu.nl wrote:
> this coordinated effort is indeed undertaken in Muenster
Since no one outside of Muenster is involved, that work
can hardly be called coordinated.
> Kurt and Barbara Aland think it
> impossible to PRINT all available information.
Irrelevant. Full texts of all MSS of all NT books could be put
on one CD-ROM by my rough estimate. What they cannot do with
all that material is analyze and comprehend it.
I think the INTTF people have made their intentions known:
that they want to publish an editio critica maior which presents
a new critical text, supported by a large apparatus of material selected
for its 'relevance', with no machine-readable publication of the base data,
perhaps ever. Like the custodians of the Qumran materials,
they want to make sure that if they make the effort of transcribing it,
they want first [and second] chance at publishing the good stuff.
Either they don't yet realize that once their live electronic texts
are fixed in ink on paper they are dead, or else they realize it all
too well but want to sit on the goods for propertarian reasons.
Vincent Broman, code 572 Bayside Email: broman@nosc.mil
Naval Command Control and Ocean Surveillance Center, RDT&E Div.
San Diego, CA 92152-6147, USA Phone: +1 619 553 1641
------------------------------
From: fuzzy <fuzzy@prairie.lakes.com>
Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 21:53:52 -0500
Subject: Word order: classical vs. nt
>In classical Greek predicates are not more often in the middle of the
>sentence. Indeed, in periodic setences they are often delayed to the very
>end, since that is the position of emphasis
Why would it matter if predicates tend to come in the middle of the
sentence? I thought the beginning was the position of emphasis. ( ...
relative a beginner here )
------------------------------
From: fuzzy <fuzzy@prairie.lakes.com>
Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 21:19:51 -0500
Subject: CDRom Software
>What CD Rom software is available in regards to the Greek New Testament?
>Where can I get more information, and what are the best packages available?
On CD-ROM there are at least two popular packages out that run in Windows:
Hermeneutica and Logos. They both have various reference works included
that will save you around 400% compared to purchasing the works as single
hardcover books. Both have the entire Bible in the original languages with
a selection of fonts and search / study capabilities -- you may wish to
decide for yourself which is better. You should be able to find information
( including e-mail addresses ) in Christian Computing magazine, or
Nortwestern Publishing House also has the information: 800 / 662 - 6022
------------------------------
From: "James K. Tauber" <jtauber@tartarus.uwa.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 10:12:46 +0800 (WST)
Subject: Manuscripts on the WWW
On Mon, 22 May 1995, David Moore wrote:
> What would be nice - since we're talking about this - is to have
> the individual key MSS available in transcription through a WWW or
> gopher site. Often, it's not a case that one wants to know how every
> MS reads on a given passage, but, rather, how a certain MS renders a
> phrase. Larry Hurtado's reference for requesting microfilms and prints
> on individual MSS is helpful in this sense; online, electric
> transcriptions, however, would be more economical, if not quite so
> certain.
That is indeed Tim Finney's and my plan. The moment we get something
(whether it be transcriptions or digitized manuscripts), it'll be
available on my WWW pages. Stay tuned...
James K. Tauber <jtauber@tartarus.uwa.edu.au>
4th year Honours Student, Centre for Linguistics
Computing Assistant, University Computing Services
University of Western Australia, Perth, AUSTRALIA
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #717
*****************************
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
To unsubscribe from this list write
majordomo@virginia.edu
with "unsubscribe b-greek-digest" as your message content. For other
automated services write to the above address with the message content
"help".
For further information, you can write the owner of the list at
owner-b-greek@virginia.edu
You can send mail to the entire list via the address:
b-greek@virginia.edu