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b-greek-digest V1 #758
b-greek-digest Tuesday, 20 June 1995 Volume 01 : Number 758
In this issue:
Re: Made-up Greek sentences
re: matthean priority
"Scribes"
Re: Made-up Greek sentences
Re: The Christ Hymn (Feinberg)
Re: The Christ Hymn (Feinberg)
Re: The Christ Hymn (Feinberg)
Re: The Christ Hymn (Feinberg)
Re: "Scribes"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Bill Mounce <billm@teknia.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 23:30:37 -0700
Subject: Re: Made-up Greek sentences
>Instead of making up sentences, why don't you take actual sentences from the
>New Testament and simplify them where necessary to include only those
>grammatical features to which the student has to date been introduced?
>Weingreen does this for his Hebrew grammar; when I took Hebrew I appreciated
>the fact that working with his sentences sounded like I was reading the Old
>Testament. This would probably increase motivation for Greek students. The
>main problem with first year Greek is the amount of material that has to be
>learned before students begin to read the New Testament and thus appreciate
>why they are having to learn the things they are studying.
>
My original reason was that if the student was reading something that
sounded biblical, then it should be biblical. Of course, I could specify in
the section that here the sentences are simplified. In the second section
they are biblical.
One of the reasons why people want made-up sentences, as far as I can tell,
is that they want to see if the students can translate without any help at
all -- such as help frommemory of hte English.
But this is an interesting suggestion, and it would help keep variety in
the sentnces. Thanks.
Bill Mounce
- -------------------------------
Teknia Software, Inc.
1306 W. Bellwood Drive
Spokane, WA 99218-2911
Internet: billm@teknia.com
AOL: Teknia
CIS: 71540,2140
"It may be Greek to you, but it is life to me."
------------------------------
From: Timster132@aol.com
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 03:22:47 -0400
Subject: re: matthean priority
TO: marmorsa@wolf.northern.edu (Art Marmorstein)
From: Timster132@aol.com
Art, in case you're still looking for scholars who support Matthean
prority over Mark, the last great defense for this view that I feel had any
wieght was in the ANCHOR bible commentary on Matthew. I can't remember the
authors name right now, but he gives a very thorough treatment of the
subject, and it is presented well (even tho I still find it unconvincing
personally).
Tim Staker
Timster132@aol.com
------------------------------
From: Timster132@aol.com
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 03:22:52 -0400
Subject: "Scribes"
TO: B-GREEK@VIRGINIA.EDU
back on 6/6/95, David Moore (dvdmoore@ix.netcom.com) commented....
> Steve's surmises about the early origin of the Gospels could
>well be correct, but Jesus' references to "scribes" most
>probably does not have the meaning he ascribes to it above.
>
>Scribes, GRAMMATEIS, in Jesus' time were the scholars
>well versed in matters biblical. Among the Jews, they were
>experts in the Law. Jesus also saw the possiblilty of the
>scholarly believing in Him and entering into the Kingdom
>of God (See Mat. 13:52).
Does anyone have an idea on who "the Scribes" of the gospels
were, _beyond_ the occupational description?
Have they ever been identified with a specific group?
I have often wondered if the Qumran community could have been
"the Scribes". Does anyone think this is a possibilty?
Peace,
Tim Staker
------------------------------
From: GLENN WOODEN <glenn.wooden@acadiau.ca>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 13:15:18 ADT
Subject: Re: Made-up Greek sentences
Bill,
I have been listening in on the "made-up Greek sentences" discussion.
I thought I would add one caveat to the idea of modifying/simplifying
the GNT sentences. I have done that for examinations just so that I
could determine whether students were translating what is there, or
whether they were working from memory. It has been offensive to some
because I have tampered with the Bible. "Close to" might be better
than "simplified" or "modified", at least in some circles.
You might actually do better to modify/simplify the LXX or the early
non-biblical Christian writings.
> My original reason was that if the student was reading something that
> sounded biblical, then it should be biblical. Of course, I could specify in
> the section that here the sentences are simplified. In the second section
> they are biblical.
If you were to use the LXX, this would take you some way to getting
what you note in the following. It will also give some exposure to
the Scriptures of the early Church.
> One of the reasons why people want made-up sentences, as far as I can tell,
> is that they want to see if the students can translate without any help at
> all -- such as help frommemory of hte English.
Glenn Wooden
Acadia Divinity College
Wolfville N.S.
Canada
wooden@acadiau.ca
------------------------------
From: Bruce Terry <terry@bible.acu.edu>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 13:28:04 CST
Subject: Re: The Christ Hymn (Feinberg)
On Sun, 18 Jun 1995, Gregory Jordan translated Phil. 2:6 as follows:
> who,
>existing with the character of God did not consider the audacity
>(contemplate the presumption) of being equal to God,
This translation is not correct. The Greek word hHGEOMAI takes a double
accusative where the two arguments of the verb in the accusative are
considered to be the same. Actually there is an implied EINAI between the
accusatives (consider X [to be] Y), as can be seen from Phil. where it is
explicit.
Whatever hARPAGMON means, it does not mean "audacity." And it is not in a
genitive relationship with TO EINAI ISA QEWi.
Note that TO EINAI ISA QEWi is an articular infinitive phrase, which gives it
the function of a substantive, which is why I translated it in a previous post
as "equality with God." As a substantive, it fills one of the arguments of
the verb.
I note in passing that I doubt there is much difference between hARPAGMOS and
hARPAGMA. hARPAGMOS is much rarer, but is used, when it is used, both
abstractly and concretely. Sometimes the Greeks let the process/result
distinction between the formation morphemes slide as the words actually were
used in real life. The same happens in all languages. That is why it is hard
to appeal to eytomology for word meanings--they keep changing!
My question on this verse has to do with word order. Is it X hHGEOMAI Y, or Y
hHGEOMAI X? And does OUC modify hARPAGMON or hHGEOMAI?
In other words, is it grammatically:
1) did not consider robbery/booty [to be] equality with God;
2) did not consider equality with God [to be] robbery/booty;
3) considered not robbery/booty [to be] equality with God;
4) considered equality with God not [to be] robbery/booty?
********************************************************************************
Bruce Terry E-MAIL: terry@bible.acu.edu
Box 8426, ACU Station Phone: 915/674-3759
Abilene, Texas 79699 Fax: 915/674-3769
********************************************************************************
------------------------------
From: "Gregory Jordan (ENG)" <jordan@chuma.cas.usf.edu>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 15:42:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: The Christ Hymn (Feinberg)
On Mon, 19 Jun 1995, Bruce Terry wrote:
> This translation is not correct. The Greek word hHGEOMAI takes a double
> accusative where the two arguments of the verb in the accusative are
> considered to be the same. Actually there is an implied EINAI between the
> accusatives (consider X [to be] Y), as can be seen from Phil. where it is
> explicit.
The reasoning behind my paraphrase was that I took "harpagmon" to be in
apposition, as a noun, with the noun phrase "to einai...", with the later
as a kind of parenthetical statement, both as objects of "hEgEsato."
That is, to translate more literally, "did not contemplate a
wrongful-appropriation, [that is,] being equal to God." Or "did not
consider a wrongful-appropriation, equality with God." I don't assume an
implied "to be." Rendering the harpagmon is difficult in English because
I was looking for a way to express wrongly taking on an attitude
inappropriate to one's self. Impersonation? Putting on airs?
Blasphemy? Nothing seems to fit quite right. Audacity conveys the
negative sense of harpamon plus its likely reference - an attitude.
Nothing material is being "snatched/stolen."
Greg Jordan
jordan@chuma.cas.usf.edu
------------------------------
From: LISATIA@aol.com
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 15:46:02 -0400
Subject: Re: The Christ Hymn (Feinberg)
dear Bruce,
Thanks for your very congent analysis. I cast my vote for #2; it
appears to be the only one with coherence for that sentence. And your
preference is?
lisatia@aol.com(richard arthur,Merrimack,NH)
------------------------------
From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 19:05:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: The Christ Hymn (Feinberg)
On Mon, 19 Jun 1995, Bruce Terry wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Jun 1995, Gregory Jordan translated Phil. 2:6 as follows:
>
> > who,
> >existing with the character of God did not consider the audacity
> >(contemplate the presumption) of being equal to God,
>
> This translation is not correct. The Greek word hHGEOMAI takes a double
> accusative where the two arguments of the verb in the accusative are
> considered to be the same. Actually there is an implied EINAI between the
> accusatives (consider X [to be] Y), as can be seen from Phil. where it is
> explicit.
>
> Whatever hARPAGMON means, it does not mean "audacity." And it is not in a
> genitive relationship with TO EINAI ISA QEWi.
>
> Note that TO EINAI ISA QEWi is an articular infinitive phrase, which gives it
> the function of a substantive, which is why I translated it in a previous post
> as "equality with God." As a substantive, it fills one of the arguments of
> the verb.
>
> I note in passing that I doubt there is much difference between hARPAGMOS and
> hARPAGMA. hARPAGMOS is much rarer, but is used, when it is used, both
> abstractly and concretely. Sometimes the Greeks let the process/result
> distinction between the formation morphemes slide as the words actually were
> used in real life. The same happens in all languages. That is why it is hard
> to appeal to eytomology for word meanings--they keep changing!
Bruce, is there, in fact, a single instance of hARPAGMON other than in
our text? I was under the impression that it really was a hapax. I have
no tools with me here in the mountains (other than a GNT, that is) to check.
> My question on this verse has to do with word order. Is it X hHGEOMAI Y, or Y
> hHGEOMAI X? And does OUC modify hARPAGMON or hHGEOMAI?
>
> In other words, is it grammatically:
> 1) did not consider robbery/booty [to be] equality with God;
> 2) did not consider equality with God [to be] robbery/booty;
> 3) considered not robbery/booty [to be] equality with God;
> 4) considered equality with God not [to be] robbery/booty?
I am out of my element to comment on Hellenistic Greek, but I can say
that the normal pattern in classical Greek would be
predicate-word/verb/object or predicate-word/object/verb. The
predicate-word normally comes first.
Wherefore I make it: (4) (but translate): considered
being-on-a-par-with-God not to-be-seized.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: David Moore <dvdmoore@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 19:51:57 -0700
Subject: Re: "Scribes"
Tim Staker (Timster132@aol.com) quoted and wrote:
>>Scribes, GRAMMATEIS, in Jesus' time were the scholars
>>well versed in matters biblical. Among the Jews, they were
>>experts in the Law. Jesus also saw the possiblilty of the
>>scholarly believing in Him and entering into the Kingdom
>>of God (See Mat. 13:52).
>
> Does anyone have an idea on who "the Scribes" of the gospels
>were, _beyond_ the occupational description?
>
> Have they ever been identified with a specific group?
>
> I have often wondered if the Qumran community could have been
>"the Scribes". Does anyone think this is a possibilty?
Tim,
I don't know if this exactly answers your question, but there is a
good discussion, including bibliography, of who the Scribes were in
Emil Su:rer's _The History of the Jewish People in the Age of Jesus
Christ_ (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark,1979) Vol. II, pp. 322-325.
Regards,
David L. Moore Director of Education
Miami, FL, USA Southeastern Spanish District
Dvdmoore@ix.netcom.com of the Assemblies of God
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #758
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