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b-greek-digest V1 #787
b-greek-digest Tuesday, 18 July 1995 Volume 01 : Number 787
In this issue:
To: NT-GREEK@virginia.edu
Re: Irenaeus and age of Jesus
Re: the greek jesus
Re: TON PLHSION SOU = TON EXQRON? (Lk 10:27; Mt 5:43-4
Re: TON PLHSION SOU = TON EXQRON? (Lk 10:27; Mt 5:43-4
Re: TON PLHSION SOU = TON EXQRON? (Lk 10:27; Mt 5:43-4
Who Changed the Shema?
Re: Irenaeus and age of Jesus
Re: TON PLHSION SOU = TON EXQRON? (Lk 10:27; Mt 5:43-4
Re: NT-Greek.arj
Re: Irenaeus and age of Jesus
Re: PARADOUNAI TW SATANA
Re: Irenaeus and age of Jesus
_Armageddon_
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: KDONFRIED@smith.smith.edu
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 08:32:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: To: NT-GREEK@virginia.edu
POSTPONE GREEK-L MAIL POSTPONE
------------------------------
From: Tom Blake <tblake@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 09:40:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Irenaeus and age of Jesus
On Sat, 15 Jul 1995, Gregory Jordan (ENG) wrote:
> > The age of Jesus (as distinguished from the date of Jesus's
> > teaching or the dates of Paul) is of no historical
> > consequence that I can see. But I do wonder why there is
> > such *certainty* over Luke's tradition of the age of Jesus.
>
> I can only mention two points that don't seem to have been mentioned. If
> Jesus were older when baptized, it would be hard to explain why a person
> capable of such a controversial career should live in anonymity for most
> of his life. ...
What if Jesus' character was dramatically affected when the Spirit
descended on him? (Was the Spirit's descent only a sign to John? or did
Jesus become fundamentally different following his baptism?)
In the Synoptic Gospels, we are told that the Spirit led Jesus into the
desert for 40 days following his baptism. This seems to me to be a
preparation for the ministry he was about to lead, a dramatic experience
heralding a dramatic change in his life.
Tom Blake
------------------------------
From: Stephen Carlson <scc@reston.icl.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 95 10:47:11 EDT
Subject: Re: the greek jesus
Ken Penner wrote:
>On 14 Jul 95 at 15:05, Mikeal Parsons wrote:
>>one would infer from this evidence and other such material
>>finds (doesn't strange make a strong case for the widespread
>>usage of greek in galilee on the basis of his finds at
>>sepphoris?) that jesus did in fact know and speak (?) greek,
>>as did the disciples (which throws all those arguments
>>against the authorship of 1 peter out the window based on the
>>inability of an unlearned fisherman knowing greek! if of
>>course you give weight to this evidence).
>
>I thought that the arguments against an uneducated Galilean
>having written 1 Peter were based more on the sophisticated
>style of the composition than on its language (Greek). I still
>have a hard time reading it.
Then there is 1 Peter's more or less explicit reference to an
amanuensis: DIA *SILOUANOU ... EGRAYA (1Pt5:12). If this
Silvanus can be identified with the Silvanus of Paul (2Co1:19
1Th1:1 2Th1:1) and the Silas of Acts (15:22 40 etc.) then
perhaps this can simultaneously account for the fairly
sophisticated style of 1 Peter and the relatively poorer style
of 2 Peter.
On the other hand, my own stylostatistical investigation indicates
that is there is very little stylistically to connect 1 Peter to
either Thessalonian epistle or to 2 Peter for that matter. The
strongest connection that 1 Peter has, interestingly enough, is to
2 Corinthians, especially chapters 2, 4, 6 and 7, and also 8 and 9,
in three-word phrases; but vocabulary-wise to Jude (thus 2Pt2 too)
and James 2 and 4.
Stephen Carlson
- --
Stephen Carlson : Poetry speaks of aspirations, : ICL, Inc.
scc@reston.icl.com : and songs chant the words. : 11490 Commerce Park Dr.
(703) 648-3330 : Shujing 2:35 : Reston, VA 22091 USA
------------------------------
From: WINBROW@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 13:01:28 -0400
Subject: Re: TON PLHSION SOU = TON EXQRON? (Lk 10:27; Mt 5:43-4
Carl Conrad wrote,
"Two questions: (1) Has anyone ever heard the "Great Commandment" recited in
that fashion? and (2) Does it fall within the realm of legitimate
"paraphrase," as we have recently used that term?"
I would say to (1) no and to (2) maybe but to me you would be doing
homeletics.
Carlton Winbery
Prof. Rel. LA College
Pineville, LA
------------------------------
From: Pat Tiller <ptiller@husc.harvard.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 13:32:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: TON PLHSION SOU = TON EXQRON? (Lk 10:27; Mt 5:43-4
On Sun, 16 Jul 1995, Carl W. Conrad wrote:
>
> However, it struck me both as unusual and as interpretatively sound. This
> morning that text as it appears in the Lucan lead-in to the parable of the
> Good Samaritan was the gospel reading in my congregation. It would surely
> appear that TON PLHSION SOU in this text is deliberately extended to
> include TON EXQRON. A bit more reflection and searching the text brought me
> to Mt 5:43-44:
>
> HKOUSATE hOTI ERRHQH, AGAPHSEIS TON PLHSION SOU KAI MISHSEIS TON
> EXQRON SOU. EGW DE LEGW hUMIN, AGAPATE TOUS EXQROUS hUMWN ...
>
> It appears to me that one could, without violating the intent of these
> verses, extrapolate and conflate them to yield the implicit teaching:
> AGAPHSEIS TON EXQRON SOU.
>
The passage in question appears in Matt 22:34-40; Mark 12:28-34; and Luke
10:25-28. It seems to me that in the Matthean and Markan versions, the
point is to say something about the Law. Matt says that the whole law
and prophets `hang' on these 2 commandments. Mark says that these 2 are
more important than offerings and sacrifices. Luke is apparently not
interested in that issue. With Matthew (if one assumes Markan priority)
he drops Mark's "Hear o Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord"; and he
imports (I suppose from the story of the "rich young ruler") the problem
of eternal life.
So, I would say that in Matthew's and mark's version, it would be
improper to paraphrase plhsion as `neighbor', since they are not
interested in the precise interpretation of the commands; rather they are
concerned with the implications of identifying them as the 1st 2 commands.
But as Carl points out, in Luke, the story is followed immediately by the
question, "And who is my neighbor." The parable of the Good Samaritan
provides the answer. So Luke is interested in the precise interpretation
of "love your neighbor." Is `enemy' a good paraphrase? Maybe, maybe
not. I suppose that depends on how you understand the parable.
In Luke 6:27-35 the phrase "love your enemies" appears twice with great
emphasis, so, at least the paraphrase is consistent with Luke's thought.
So, how do you understand the parable of the Good Samaritan?
Pat Tiller
Harvard Divinity School
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 12:47:04 -0500
Subject: Re: TON PLHSION SOU = TON EXQRON? (Lk 10:27; Mt 5:43-4
At 1:32 PM 7/17/95, Pat Tiller wrote:
>
>So, how do you understand the parable of the Good Samaritan?
Now, MY question was a relatively simple one! I don't know if you're
serious; I've heard several different interpretations of the parable.
Thanks for your response. Of coruse, I never meant that I would myself pull
that paraphrase out without explaining how I came by it. it just seemed to
me that idea AGAPHSEIS TON EXQRON SOU, would be a legitimate understanding
of the law as interpreted by Matthew and as implicitly interpreted by Luke
in the intro to the parable.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: Paul Moser <PMOSER@cpua.it.luc.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 95 12:59 CDT
Subject: Who Changed the Shema?
It would be good to know who among the earliest
Christians first changed the Shema in a manner
incompatible with first-century Jewish monotheism.
Mark 12 has Jesus endorse the OT Shema (v 29) but
then has Jesus himself give messianic significance
to kurios (vv 35-37). In 1Cor 8:6 Paul offers a
reconstrual of the Shema that distinguishes theos
and kurios (and this may bear on the proper translation
of the much disputed Rom 9:5). Certainly some of
the early Christian preaching in Acts (e.g., 2:36)
raises problems for strict Jewish monotheism, at least
if kurios is the kurios ho theos of the Shema. What
first century Judaism meant by kurios heis estin is,
however, less than obvious. In the first century
BCE, 11QMelchizedek (=11Q13) refers to the heavenly
deliverer Melchizedek as "el" and "elohim". Sometimes
use of "elohim" seems to mean only "judge", but one
is left wondering. Paul evidently layered the Shema
to distinguish theos and kurios, and it may be (contrary
to certain caricatures) that many first-century Jews
did not find this incompatible with their monotheism.--
Paul Moser, Loyola University of Chicago.
------------------------------
From: Lorel509@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 15:38:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Irenaeus and age of Jesus
Hi All,
I was just wondering if any of you have read Grant Jeffrey's book
_Armegeddon_ where he states his belief that Christ died on the Feast of
Unleavened Bread, the fifteenth day of Nisan, and rose three days later on
the Feast of Firstfruits to become "the firstfruits" of our resurrection?
Jeffry's seems to have done extensive caluclations to prove that all
important dates of Jewish history fall on the appointed feast days. I'm
wondering how reliable are his theories?
Lori Eldridge
Spokane, WA
------------------------------
From: "David B. Gowler" <dgowler@minerva.cis.yale.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 16:00:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: TON PLHSION SOU = TON EXQRON? (Lk 10:27; Mt 5:43-4
On Mon, 17 Jul 1995 WINBROW@aol.com wrote:
> Carl Conrad wrote,
> "Two questions: (1) Has anyone ever heard the "Great Commandment" recited in
> that fashion? and (2) Does it fall within the realm of legitimate
> "paraphrase," as we have recently used that term?"
>
> I would say to (1) no and to (2) maybe but to me you would be doing
> homeletics.
I would agree, but the "maybe" of (2) would come from one understanding of
Luke's context of the saying (the parable of the Good Samaritan follows
it).
David
************************************
David B. Gowler
Associate Professor of Religion
Chowan College
Summer address (until Aug 11):
dgowler@minerva.cis.yale.edu
------------------------------
From: Ken Penner <kpenner@mail.unixg.ubc.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 07:15:26 -0800
Subject: Re: NT-Greek.arj
On 13 Jul 95 at 9:02, Carl W. Conrad wrote:
> Did anyone receiving the above-named file--I think it was on
> July 10--successfully decode it or make sense of it in any
> way?
Yes. It was reposted as a normal message in B-Greek a couple
days ago. It had to do with a request for support for the
development of Russian software, among other things.
You've probably read it, so I'll just quote enough to identify
it.
It began,
Christian Center
Secretary: Fedosov Sergej Alekseevich
and ended,
Now I stop. Contact with me by usial mail or E-mail
address alex@avers.donetsk.ua. Please, compress your
letters (ZIP, ARJ or RAR) - I must pay for every Kbyte
abroad.
May The Lord blesses you & your ministry!
Your brother in Christ
</quote>
Ken Penner
Regent College, Vancouver
kpenner@unixg.ubc.ca
http://netshop.net/~kpenner
------------------------------
From: "Gregory Jordan (ENG)" <jordan@chuma.cas.usf.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 20:16:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Irenaeus and age of Jesus
On Mon, 17 Jul 1995, Tom Blake wrote:
> What if Jesus' character was dramatically affected when the Spirit
> descended on him? (Was the Spirit's descent only a sign to John? or did
> Jesus become fundamentally different following his baptism?)
>
> In the Synoptic Gospels, we are told that the Spirit led Jesus into the
> desert for 40 days following his baptism. This seems to me to be a
> preparation for the ministry he was about to lead, a dramatic experience
> heralding a dramatic change in his life.
Tom,
Of course, as someone about 30 years old, I can be very objective about
this entire subject (NOT :). And I know I would risk being stoned by all
the 50-somethings-plus here if I said anything about older people being
less likely to be radical or to make dramatic shifts in their outlook :)
And anyway, the older I get the more I can believe it might be possible -
that a grey-haired Jesus might have thrown caution and his past to
the winds and joined that outrageous countercultural John-the-Baptist
movement down by the river. A second birth indeed.
Greg Jordan
jordan@chuma.cas.usf.edu
------------------------------
From: "Gregory Jordan (ENG)" <jordan@chuma.cas.usf.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 20:48:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: PARADOUNAI TW SATANA
On Sun, 16 Jul 1995, Ken Penner wrote:
> I'm forwarding a question about the meaning of "handing over to
> Satan" in 1Tim 1:20 and 1Cor 5:5.
ParadidOmi was a technical legal term. People were handed over to an
officer of the court to be placed in jail to await their trial or
punishment. It occurs frequently in the NT so opportunities for comparison
are plentiful. One passage that occurs to me is Matthew 5:23-26 - there
the "antidikos" or offended party gets to throw the offender into jail
until the latter pays off his debt. In Paul, Satan seems to play some
sort of educational role - helping the person "handed over" eventually
to be reconciled on God's terms. As far as I can see, it seemed to have
involved a kind of temporary and optimistic disassociation. I wonder if
anyone knows of Jewish precedents for such a ritual. Jesus himself was
"handed over" for blasphemy (as in 1 Tim 1:20) to the Romans for
punishment - was it with the idea that Satan would restore Jesus to
membership in Israel after death?
Greg Jordan
jordan@chuma.cas.usf.edu
------------------------------
From: Timothy Bratton <bratton@acc.jc.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 20:01:32 -35900
Subject: Re: Irenaeus and age of Jesus
On Mon, 17 Jul 1995, Gregory Jordan (ENG) wrote:
>
> On Mon, 17 Jul 1995, Tom Blake wrote:
>
> > What if Jesus' character was dramatically affected when the Spirit
> > descended on him? (Was the Spirit's descent only a sign to John? or did
> > Jesus become fundamentally different following his baptism?)
> >
> > In the Synoptic Gospels, we are told that the Spirit led Jesus into the
> > desert for 40 days following his baptism. This seems to me to be a
> > preparation for the ministry he was about to lead, a dramatic experience
> > heralding a dramatic change in his life.
>
> Tom,
>
> Of course, as someone about 30 years old, I can be very objective about
> this entire subject (NOT :). And I know I would risk being stoned by all
> the 50-somethings-plus here if I said anything about older people being
> less likely to be radical or to make dramatic shifts in their outlook :)
> And anyway, the older I get the more I can believe it might be possible -
> that a grey-haired Jesus might have thrown caution and his past to
> the winds and joined that outrageous countercultural John-the-Baptist
> movement down by the river. A second birth indeed.
>
> Greg Jordan
> jordan@chuma.cas.usf.edu
>
Dr. Timothy L. Bratton bratton@acc.jc.edu
Department of History/Pol. Science work: 1-701-252-3467, ext. 2022
6006 Jamestown College home: 1-701-252-8895
Jamestown, ND 58405 home phone/fax: 1-701-252-7507
As somebody pushing 50, I occasionally feel the need for a
midlife crisis; did prophets have these in the 1st century A.D.? After
making tables, chairs, and boxes for several decades, maybe a carpenter
would want a career change. . . . 8-[)
------------------------------
From: Ken Penner <kpenner@mail.unixg.ubc.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 19:57:42 -0800
Subject: _Armageddon_
On 17 Jul 95 at 15:38, Lorel509@aol.com wrote:
> I was just wondering if any of you have read Grant Jeffrey's
> book _Armegeddon_ where he states his belief that Christ died
> on the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the fifteenth day of Nisan,
> and rose three days later on the Feast of Firstfruits to
> become "the firstfruits" of our resurrection?
I read the book several years ago before I knew any better. I
even went to one of his talks. It didn't take long before I
found what he was doing with the Daniel numbers was bogus.
> Jeffry's seems to have done extensive caluclations to prove
> that all important dates of Jewish history fall on the
> appointed feast days. I'm wondering how reliable are his
> theories?
He sems to take an approach to the scriptures that involves
correlating numerical clues from the various books to find
hidden information. I don't consider that a legitimate reading
of scripture. At the least, I would expect him to consider the
historical and literary contexts and the author's intent. I
wouldn't trust his calculation-derived theories on anything of
eternal significance.
Ken Penner
Regent College, Vancouver
kpenner@unixg.ubc.ca
http://netshop.net/~kpenner
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #787
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