From: Paul R. Zellmer (zellmer@cag.pworld.net.ph)
Date: Thu Jul 23 1998 - 18:32:05 EDT
Williams, Wes wrote:
>
> I want to test the waters before submitting a translation decision, so your
> feedback is welcome.
>
> Would anyone rightly object to a translation of "people" or "persons" for
> PROSWPWN (faces) at 2 Cor 1:11 and PROSWPWi ("person") at Heb 9:24?
>
Wes, a whole lot depends on the translation paradigm being used. If you
are aiming at the dynamic equivalents, you MIGHT get by with this.
However, for a more literal translation, I think you're leaving out some
important secondary concepts.
> I choose "people" for PROSWPWN at 2 Cor 1:11 by synecdoche since "faces" do
> not supplicate, people do. Therefore, by synecdoche (figurative extension of
> meaning), PROSWPWN appears to legitimately refer to the English gloss
> "persons" in this context. This is also noted by BAGD - PROSWPON - 2
> "Person."
>
I see this case as being the most open to your interpretation. And, as
you note, that interpretation has some support in the references works,
based on a secondary or tertiary meaning in secular greek and Philo's
use of the word. We cannot know for certain, but I would like to posit
that this might also be translated "appearances" with the sense of
appearing before God in supplication. But that's my thinking only, with
no real undergirding support.
> Also, as G. Friedrich, TDNT 6 [Eerdmans] observes:
> "The use of PROSWPON in the N[ew] T[estament]
> follows closely that of the LXX . . . and the word has
> the same range of meaning as in the OT.... The
> sense "person" occurs in the NT at 2C. 1:11. The
> Corinthians are to join the apostle in prayer in order
> that "thanks may be given for us by many persons"
> (EK POLLWN PROSWPWN)" (ibid., 775, 778).
>
> Of course, this is a common expression from the LXX, where expressions
> ranging from Pharoah "The day you see my face (or, me - TO PROSWPON) you
> will die" (Ex 10:28) to YHWH "for no man will see my face and will live."
> (Ex 33:20)
>
But this is a different use of the concept, which is referring not to
the person but to the features, which is closer to the primary usage of
the word.
> I see no meaningful idiomatic alternative to "person" for PROSWPON at 2 Cor
> 1:11. If it is left "many", this encourages the question, many WHAT?
>
(See the proposal above.)
> At Hebrews 9:24, most English translations translate the
> anthropomorphological EMFANISQHNAI TWi PROSWPWi TOU QEOU as "he appeared in
> the presence of God" rather than "he appeared before the person of God". I
> value trying to be consistent in translation and opt for the latter rather
> than the former.
>
Again, if you are working on the basis of dynamic equivalence, you might
have an easier time getting this accepted. However, if that were the
case, I would probably opt for something like "appeared before God."
In a more literal translation, I think that you are adding too much
baggage if you use person of God. "Person of God" as opposed to what?
a representative of God? the essense of God? "Person of God" in
English idiom appears to be focussing on a characteristic of God in your
translation rather than the location of the presentation. That does not
seem to go along with the sense of the verse, which does focus on the
location.
"Presence" may not be quite strong enough to pick up the all force of
what appears to be a Hebrew idiom, but "person" seems too strong, too
distracting from what is being brought out.
> The counterargument runs along lexical lines, something like: 'I object
> because the word "person" is not used in the bible and therefore a
> translator should not use it.' However, I do not believe this argument is
> accurate since PROSWPON does carry this sense via the Hebrew idiom and the
> synecdoche reflected in the idiom.
>
> Sincerely,
> Wes Williams
Of course, all of these thoughts fall in the realm of "my opinion."
Paul
-- Paul and Dee Zellmer, Jimmy Guingab, Geoffrey Beltran Ibanag Translation Project Cabagan, Philippines--- B-Greek home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/bgreek You are currently subscribed to b-greek as: [cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu] To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-b-greek-329W@franklin.oit.unc.edu To subscribe, send a message to subscribe-b-greek@franklin.oit.unc.edu
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